In this episode, Andrew and Barbara talk about high-conflict divorce and the impact it can have on you and your children.
Note: This podcast was originally hosted on Barbara La Pointe’s website, which has since gone offline. I’ve reposted the episodes here so people still have access to the materials.
Transcript
Andrew Folkler: Welcome everyone to Broken Families where we host conversations on divorce, parental alienation and high conflict relationships. My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m Barbara La Pointe.
Andrew Folkler: And today we’re going to dive deep into very ugly situation. It’s one where no one really plans on going down this route, but unfortunately the realities of life sometimes lead us down here. And this is through the painful process of divorce.
Barbara La Pointe: Andrew, I think we’re biting off the whole big enchilada today, because we’ve talked about parental alienation and we’ve talked about high conflict personalities. And all of this comes into play under the umbrella of divorce.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. Now everyone wants to avoid divorce. No one wants their relationship to end this way. But in many ways, divorce tends to be the source or the beginning, I should say, of all this ugliness that we’ve talked about previously. And it’s where a lot of these conflicts tend to be born. Or at least it’s what amplifies those conflicts.
Barbara La Pointe: I think you’re right, Andrew. I think nobody wants their plans for divorce to happen. But it does. And I like to prepare women to be ready when it does. It’s great to pre-plan and exit. Or at least, rather than just jumping on the divorce train. But as you know, we were talking about this earlier, 50% of couples more or less statistically will enter into a divorce.
Andrew Folkler: Unfortunately, and I believe that’s backed by the American Psychological Association, the APA. They also say subsequent marriages have a higher likelihood of entering in a divorce as well. And it’s a really ugly thing. And it breeds a lot of confusion and a lot of worry and anxiety.
Andrew Folkler: There’s the sense of what do I do next? Your whole life is falling apart. Your marriage is falling apart. Sometimes there are kids involved and even family members might get involved. And it becomes not only a separation of the marriage, but also it’s a separation of a group of people. And so in a way, it really does impact everyone. And it can just be a really ugly thing altogether.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely can be. It could also be a very loving thing. But in today’s day and age, I think, unfortunately, we’re seeing and talking more about high conflict divorces. I always like to dream about a divorce by design where was a loving, conscious ending. But unfortunately, most divorces are ugly, as you’re saying, nasty.
Andrew Folkler: You’re definitely right. It can be the start of a new beginning, an opportunity to return back to your own core values and not be in a relationship that makes you unhappy. And so it’s definitely an opportunity to grow from it. But like you were saying, it can be a really hurtful process.
Barbara La Pointe: Unfortunately, I think the system feels it to be a hurtful process. And there’s a lot of collateral damage for every member of the family when a divorce goes bad or turns nasty, or as the profession or the sector likes to call it a high conflict divorce.
Andrew Folkler: That’s absolutely true. Divorces can be extremely pricey, especially with any disputes that occur, custody issues, and all of these things add up, it’s just more affidavits that need to be written. And once you get the bill, and you start to wonder how am I going to pay for this?
Andrew Folkler: And it’s even worse, actually, for people who give up their career when they’re sacrificing for the family. Some people might choose to not pursue that high end job that they always dreamed of because they wanted to be more present for the family. And as a result, when they walk into a divorce, they’re realizing now that their finances were in the control of their partner that they don’t want to be with. And that now they have to assess how are they going to not only cover their own expenses and the expenses of their children, but how are they going to pay for the lawyer?
Barbara La Pointe: I think that’s really something that most women have no thought of before they file for divorce. It’s really hard to see all those pitfalls and barriers that you have to face before you file. But once you file, there’s no turning back. And that’s when women and men have to learn really quickly how to navigate this complex and not very friendly legal system.
Andrew Folkler: That’s absolutely true. I imagine a person might feel almost broken just to the point where the relationship they thought was going to be the one. So a marriage is almost like a declaration to yourself, to your partner, to the rest of the world, to any deities that this is the person you want to commit yourself to and you want to be with and spend the rest of your life with. And so to have that commitment, just fall apart to the point where now you have to go back against that and say, this is not the one that I have to get myself out for my own mental stability, or in some cases, just safety in general. It can be a very heartbreaking process.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely. And that heartbreak shows up in our bodies when we’re going through divorce. We have a whole other batch of symptoms show up that signal these unresolved emotions, because obviously there’s a lot of unresolved emotions that led you to divorce in the first place. So I see clients that are suffering from depression, anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia or serious loss of sleep, worry. And on top of all of that, now they have enormous financial pressure that’s demanding more of them.
Barbara La Pointe: And all of these decisions to navigate in a very demanding legal process. And maybe you’ve never worked with a lawyer before, if you’re that woman, but you’re describing that stayed home, or even a man that stayed home and sacrificed his career, maybe you’ve never gone to the boardroom of a high ranking family lawyer, because that’s a whole different world in itself, or maybe you’ve never gone to family court or deal with the legality, or deal with the serious amount of financial wisdom that’s needed to navigate a divorce.
Andrew Folkler: And it’s easy to make mistakes. It’s easy to let yourself be guided by someone you might think is an expert, but it’s really either just presenting you a list of options that you have to pick your poison, or worse, be a situation where they are just putting you through process after process. And each time you’re just forking over yet another tab.
Barbara La Pointe: Andrew, I love that pick your poison, because that is really what it feels like when you go through divorce, and I’ve been through one and you’ve been through one in different roles, and different parts of the family tree, but it’s like pick your poison totally.
Andrew Folkler: It really is. It’s a catch 22. There’s no winning in divorce. There’s only surviving. And it’s just a really ugly process. And even though I haven’t divorced a partner, I just went through divorce twice as a child. It can be just a really ugly process all together.
Barbara La Pointe: There’s definitely no winners in a high conflict divorce. There are no winners. In fact, the biggest losers are our children. That’s a really strong stated statement. But really, children suffer so much through a high conflict divorce, not disengaged, but there are some winners. And those winners might be family lawyers, family lawyers do really, really well in high conflict divorces, both in the States and in Canada.
Barbara La Pointe: And not to sound jaded, because I know there are some truly excellent family lawyers. And we need them, we need them to do some of that legal work in the final stamp on the paper. But whether we need them or not, to determine the best interests of our children, whether we need family lawyers to determine parenting. That’s another question.
Andrew Folkler: Definitely. And one thing that’s implied with everything you were saying is the end of the day, the lawyer always gets paid, whether the divorce process goes as planned, or it goes awry, they still get paid, their fee is still required, no matter what. And like you were saying, once you engage them, it’s an all in or nothing kind of thing.
Barbara La Pointe: I’m just getting so passionate about this subject, because this is actually a universal law, Andrew, that the lawyer always gets paid, even if it’s at the consequence, where your children are penalized for that. And lawyers should be paid. But when you have a scenario when family lawyers, and I personally sometimes have been known to say or believe that there’s a scarcity of ethical family lawyers in North America, because being a family lawyer is really a cash cow. This is biblical stuff.
Barbara La Pointe: You’re taking your money to the bank being a family lawyer, because you’re going to get paid. And there’s no escaping that. So it’s a little bit like the mafia. Once you’re in the system, not trying to scare our audience here, but just be forewarned, there’s no getting out of the system, you don’t enter into family law, or the family court system and then say, Oh, this is unpleasant. I’d like to back out change my mind. You’re in for a penny, you’re in for a pound. And that is a hard reality to swallow. I found it hard to swallow.
Andrew Folkler: And you’re absolutely right. With how many countless marriages that occur and having 50% of them typically end in divorce, if you were to think about just how much revenue that would generate, it really is a cash cow. You’re absolutely right in that instance, especially with various disputes like custody and asset division.
Barbara La Pointe: And asset division is a matter of amount. It should be fairly black and white, but where family law really sinks their teeth into you and really drains all your assets is when it comes to issues of custody. That’s where a lot of money is made and paid. And that can be extremely painful. I know for myself, I’m passionate on the subject because I would love to see that money go back into a family’s life or back into a child’s life. I just don’t believe that many couples out there, men or women, really, truly know how they can almost be bankrupt or broken or have all our assets strained just by entering into a divorce.
Andrew Folkler: You’re absolutely correct. And there was an interesting little bit in the documentary, Erasing Family, directed by Ginger Gentile, remember, where we were talking about it earlier, how a lot of the child support that was being allotted was being sent through the system more so than it was being sent to the child themselves.
Interested in Erasing Family?
- Watch the documentary Erasing Family for free online.
- Read my review on Erasing Family.
Barbara La Pointe: That was such a powerful moment in Ginger’s documentary where this father was outraged when he was sharing that his child support was going to the county office or to the system in the States rather than to his son or daughter. And I know in Canada, we have a lot of similar problems, but often our child support as mothers will be spent on family lawyers instead of going to the direct benefit of that child. And that is heartbreaking.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. And so it’s just a very difficult thing altogether. So going in full circle here, going through a divorce and you’ve got all these mixed emotions of you’re afraid, somewhat depressed, anxious, and then you’re tagging on all these financial worries. And then on top of that, you’re entering into a system that is not for equality. You’re entering force into a system that’s going to further make things difficult and it’s going to feed off of whatever income you put into it.
Barbara La Pointe: Of course, it’s really, really expensive. Let’s just say it clearly, really, really expensive. And your life can actually turn into divorce lockdown, because you’re in it to win it. And the system encourages that kind of mentality, but you’re definitely in it until it’s over. And my personal divorce I was in active litigation for five years and my total process was close to seven years of my life. So if you consider that amount of time in the life of a child, it’s even more time, right?
Andrew Folkler: It absolutely can be. And I’ve spoken to a lot of parents who end up having to fork over large amounts and alimony or child support and are completely unable to get themselves financially stable. And they’re just scraping by for years and years because the amount of money taken and it’s just garnished out of their pay stubs, they can’t even budget accordingly. And as a result, they are forced to live off of a much tighter income, simply because whatever they earn, a piece of the pie goes straight to the county clerk’s office that will then take a piece of their pie and then whatever’s left goes to the child or the custodial parent.
Barbara La Pointe: And so really, in a very true sense, if you’re entering into divorce, expecting things to get better or maybe you’re seeking your own freedom, you actually go into that divorce lockdown and you lose your autonomy over your finances and you can lose your freedom because you literally are handing that over to a family lawyer or the family court system. I truly honestly like to say to my clients and I believe that you need to have tremendous strength and perseverance to deal with this system. And a lot of business savvy, it’s just a lot of hard work to go through family court. So the penalties of divorce are tremendous. The penalties are big Andrew.
Andrew Folkler: It definitely is. Unfortunately, at least in the United States, you cannot default on child support. And so, for many adults, it can lead into prison time.
Barbara La Pointe: And I think the US is a little bit more severe on that front than Canada, but you see similar cases in Canada like that. But fathers and mothers, not just fathers, can have huge accounts owing a couple hundred thousand dollars in child support. And how are they ever going to make that up? So in effect, it feels like when you get divorced, in circumstances like this, that you become a criminal. It really truly feels like a criminal act when you enter into that system.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. And I think it’s important to make clear that it is not a criminal act. The system is designed to make you feel that way. But unfortunately, that just means as adults, we all have to come together and work to change that system.
Barbara La Pointe: I admire people who go out and try and change the system. It’s a big, big system that’s like a big wheel that turns. But there are definitely advocates and men and women out there and families and advocacy groups that are trying to change the system for the better. Definitely.
Andrew Folkler: So in the event that the person’s going through a divorce and they are unfortunately divorcing a high conflict personality. And just for a quick reminder to the audience, a high conflict personality is someone who engages in behaviors such as blame shifting and manipulation and often is a narcissistic person. And so if an individual is divorcing such a person, the end result tends to be a lot more litigation, a lot more divorce processes. And that tends to not only impact everyone, but it also raises the bill. So what kind of things can a person do when they’re dealing with high conflict personality and they’re in the process of divorcing them?
Barbara La Pointe: Great question, Andrew. I think the most important thing you can do is recognize that the person is high conflict and you really might not know, but definitely helps to know because high conflict personalities create high conflict legal files. And you pointed out that those are a lot more expensive and they certainly are. You’re going to have a high conflict legal file and that’s going to be 10, 20, 30, 40 times more time and money than you thought it ever could be.
Barbara La Pointe: A lot of times I believe people go to a family lawyer and they’ll get that initial retainer and they’ll cut that first check for say $5,000 is the average retainer in Canada. They forget that they’ve got to keep cutting checks as you go through the process. That first check just gets you in the system. And then it just keeps going. So to have a divorce vision with a high conflict personality how can I cross the finish line on this divorce? I highly recommend having divorce vision and divorce goals. It can be a lot longer than you’d ever imagined.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely can. And the underlying theme that people forget unfortunately is when the money runs out, so does the lawyer. Because the lawyer is only going to be there for as long as they get paid. And I remember this from my own experience where we reached a point in the divorce where my dad was divorcing my stepmother and it got to the point where the lawyer said in order for us to continue is going to take another $10,000. And that was way beyond anything we could muster up.
Andrew Folkler: And there was no saving grace. There was no angel who was going to come down and bless us with 10 grand. So the difficulties that arise from there, even though I was working a minimum wage job at the time, just putting all my money into lawyer funds, it was very noticeable that the effort put on their side long ended because we didn’t pay the bill. We would do a couple thousand at a time and what we got was basically haphazard work.
Barbara La Pointe: I really feel what you’re saying because that is such a devastating position to be in when you’re not finished your divorce and you run out of money and you need that $10,000 and for many of our viewers and for us $10,000 isn’t easy to just whip up and then find that money in a crisis when you need it so bad and your kids lives are on the line and you don’t have it.
Barbara La Pointe: I’ve had many lawyers tell me, “Barbara I’m not a social worker. I’m a lawyer.” And family lawyers in Canada love that line. They love to say we’re not social workers, we’re lawyers. So those are the realities of divorce that you might not know about before you got in. So did you ever get the $10,000 Andrew or what happened?
Andrew Folkler: No. What ended up happening was we would do about $2,000 at a time and it would take a good amount of time to save up for that kind of money and it wasn’t until we reached a point where we didn’t think that the lawyers were helping anymore that we just ended our agreement with them and proceeded to move on and so at that point the divorce proceedings were right about finalized. The custody was unchangeable at that point and what we did moving forward was look towards an alternative means of communication.
Barbara La Pointe: The hard thing about that is when you ended that agreement with that lawyer you moved on but sometimes you have to start all over again with the next lawyer to find that resolution that you’re seeking.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely and in that case you either try and reconcile with the old lawyer, usually isn’t there a fee for a new lawyer to catch up with the legal case? They have to do a ton of background research and basically catch up.
Barbara La Pointe: Exactly and then you’re paying that new lawyer to catch up on your file which eats up your initial retainer and it’s like starting all over again so that’s a big step back from going through multiple family lawyers. Sometimes you have to do that sometimes you have to change lawyers or you lose that lawyer that you know but it’s really really hard and the other thing is that individuals will find that the family court system does not appreciate multiple lawyers so they don’t like citizens who have multiple lawyers.
Barbara La Pointe: It ultimately reflects poorly on the client on the mum or dad and it’s painted in a very ugly way as if that person is unstable or financially unstable or whatever playing Donald Trump with their lawyers, you’re fired. And that doesn’t go over well when you’re trying to present as a stable parent so great pitfall to avoid.
Andrew Folkler: That’s definitely a really good point, don’t hire and fire lawyers because the judge only sees what’s on paper, they don’t know what happened in the background they don’t know anything else other than what’s on paper right in front of them.
Barbara La Pointe: Those family judges only have such a short amount of time typically to look at their files, it could be 15 minutes to plead your family’s case, it could be half an hour, and it’s a very small community family court system, it’s very small, so judges know the lawyers. It’s a very small community so there’s a lot of pitfalls you can avoid, hopefully make the right decisions to clear the path forward, but again really awkward time to make clear decisions when you’re under such emotional pressure.
Andrew Folkler: Is there any way to work through that emotional pressure to be able to better assess what to do next?
Barbara La Pointe: Well divorce can be more isolating than COVID-19 it really can be.
Barbara La Pointe: And I suggest not discussing your divorce with family and friends because sometimes I can just up the emotional intensity and I truly suggest retaining, so you retain your family lawyer and that gets to business part done. Right Andrew, what do you think about the idea of then also at the same time retaining some support team for you in terms of a psychologist or a divorce coach or a therapist and then two teams.
Andrew Folkler: I think it’s a really good move and it’s a good investment considering that sometimes we do need that extra support and unfortunately with topics like divorce and family conflicts it’s easy for other people to look from the outside and say oh well I don’t want to get involved in that and I remember seeing that during the divorces I went through with my parents.
Andrew Folkler: I remember seeing how family members that always supported me and anything I did immediately withdrew and were afraid to get involved and were afraid to do anything or say anything or have any opinions or maybe they did have their opinions but they never vocalized them. So having someone on your side who’s there to coach you and guide you is more powerful than most people think simply because when we’re stuck in the echo chamber of our heads it’s easy to act irrationally and on those intense emotions rather than seeing the bigger picture and knowing how to move forward.
Barbara La Pointe: And those emotions are so very intense so if you can have someone to guide you through neutralizing some of those emotions and helping you to self-regulate those emotions before you act on an emotion that’s going to bring so many great benefits not only to yourself your children your family but it will also keep your legal bill down because you won’t be having those conversations with your family lawyer who says I’m not a social worker and that will streamline your communication with your lawyer and reduce fees.
Andrew Folkler: You’re definitely right in that sense where having a coach will help you stay on track and also help you see the things that you’re just not seeing right then and there.
Barbara La Pointe: Sometimes it can be really challenging to see your own part in something so it can also deliver or help you arrive at a lot more clarity and so if you could see your part have clarity and have that unconditional neutral non-judgmental support you’re in so much more of an empowered place to make those tough decisions.
Andrew Folkler: One thing I would definitely like to bring up, this is something that you might see in a lot of motivational groups especially where it’s known as Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of human needs, it’s basically a pyramid that lists all the things that a human needs to achieve with their best self and so the reason why I bring it up is when the things at the bottom are challenged those are where we need to put our focus and having a support team can help us stabilize those things at the bottom.
Andrew Folkler: Bottom being your physiological needs like air water food shelter a lot of these things can be threatened during a high conflict divorce then your next level would be your safety needs things like personal security your employment your resources health and anything that you own.
Andrew Folkler: The third level would be your love and your relationships and your sense of belonging so obviously your friendships, family, your sense of connection and then moving upward you have your esteem your self-respect yourself in your emotional regulation and then obviously the apex would be self-actualization while we’re not going to be putting too much attention on the self-actualization which is where most of the motivational speakers will go straight for having that foundation of the bottom four is really what’s needed to get through the turmoil of the divorce and honestly all of them go up in the air when you’re in a divorce just simply because you don’t know if it’s going to threaten your financial livelihood.
Andrew Folkler: And if it does then will that threaten your safety and physiological needs and so having someone on board on your team to help you make sure that those bases are all covered and to make sure that you remember that as you go through this process to make sure that you don’t lose your self-respect and you don’t lose the relationships that matter to you and you are able to not fall into that pit of negative emotions then you’ll be able to maintain those needs and build on yourself after as a divorce is done.
Barbara La Pointe: Such good points Andrew, I totally agree, all those first four layers are really under fire during a divorce and those are things that we don’t think about when we enter into divorce or we can’t even dare to imagine and we haven’t even touched on abusive or domestic abuse divorce or abusive divorces but just as a side note I was saying earlier that I’ve actually had two incidences where women have said during divorce their husband has set their house on fire.
Andrew Folkler: That’s just wild to even imagine that someone would go that length to hurt someone that they probably told on a regular basis that they loved them.
Barbara La Pointe: Sometimes divorce is a case where your best friend turns into your worst enemy with emotions like anger and vengeance and revenge trump everything else and you’d be surprised what can happen. So that’s two women and this is in Calgary, Alberta, Canada a little old city here in the mountains in the wild west so divorces actually a very vulnerable time and the quicker we can get back up that triangle to self actualization where inspiration healing and love live the better.
Andrew Folkler: And the best way is to protect those bottom needs. So if you’re in a situation where your partner might be that aggressive or that violent or that hurtful you have to do what’s best for you to protect yourself and your body your being your emotional self your psychological self and you’re absolutely right and it’s a scary thought to think that someone you loved might turn into that much of a monster.
Barbara La Pointe: It really is unimaginable but happens more often than we think and unfortunately the system is unprepared for that there isn’t a lot of education that family lawyers have or family judges have around domestic abuse assault trauma training for example so it really is pretty actually correct when a lawyer says I’m not a social worker because they really have no training in any of those things and can’t be expected to support their client in that way.
Andrew Folkler: You’re absolutely right they are specialists of the law they know how to work around certain legal proceedings they know how to fight on that front but they definitely don’t have the means to bring in those other social elements and they’re expected not to.
Barbara La Pointe: They have a job to do hopefully they’re driving this towards a finish line and driving the train forward and sometimes family lawyers don’t do that sometimes they drag it on so they can keep their retainer going some lawyers do propel it towards a finish line but whether your lawyer does or doesn’t you should know where your finish line is in divorce and that’s another area where having a support team like a divorce coach or a therapist or whatever that is too can really help you to create yourself because divorce is really a call to empowerment especially for many people.
Barbara La Pointe: If you were struggling to have your own to speak your own personal truths for example in your relationship well now fast forward and imagine trying to learn how to speak your personal truth in front of a family lawyer or in a high conflict divorce. That’s a really challenging place to learn how to speak up for yourself.
Andrew Folkler: You don’t get time to practice you don’t get time to get ready for it it’s just at the moment you’re going to be expected to be ready for it and for some people that can mean making a lot of mistakes that they will in hindsight wish they didn’t.
Barbara La Pointe: Those mistakes can really cost you but also cost your children and the fun thing about family court is mistakes are never erased and they just keep coming back to haunt you and haunt you. I love to speak from personal experience to Andrew, it’s so many mistakes and those mistakes just come back to bite you in the bum right.
Andrew Folkler: It absolutely does because it’s all on paper never forget that there’s going to be constant documentation whether it’s on your end or on their end it’s always going to be on paper and so any mistakes any outbursts any breakdowns all of that’s recorded you see this a lot especially when people get over really emotional during these psychological evaluations and then the evaluation turns for the worse and it ends up reporting them as unfit to be parents.
Andrew Folkler: I’ve seen that with a lot of people that I’ve counseled in the parental alienation sector where they were given their reports on the other psych evals were reflecting on them negatively and unfortunately it’s a very unforgiving system because if one psyche evaluation says you’re not fit to be a parent or you’re not in a stable state of mind the court’s going to look at that and say I’m not going to doubt the assessment of an expert.
Barbara La Pointe: Unfortunately sometimes the goal with these high conflict personalities and with the system is not to support nurture and grow the positive strengths but to look for that problem and to look for a problem in a parent and deem that parent unstable and honestly this process could make anyone unstable it’s an incredibly intense process and there’s nothing more intense than a custody evaluation in my view.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely, custody is where it really gets ugly. Kids will never really know how to best deal with the situation and while in a general sense I’m an advocate for 50-50 obviously and everything is on a case by case basis the children don’t often go through that kind of process sometimes you really do get the Disneyland dads or the Disneyland moms they’re only there to just try and take the kids out to do one thing fun a month or twice every month and they lose that valuable time to watch their kid grow and act as a meaningful part of their lives.
Barbara La Pointe: So true when you think about it each child has got the chromosomes and the genes of 50 percent of mom and 50 percent of dad and they really do need both of their biological parents but it’s sad to see families caught up for years and years in family court while their child’s growing up and even a Disneyland dad or mom could be pretty stressed on that one day if they’re having to constantly deal with legal issues.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. There’s also just the stress of am I gonna resonate with my child? Are they gonna like me if I don’t take them to somewhere fun? Are they gonna remember me after I drop them off back at the other parents? Are they going to want to even talk to me? What if this is the last time I see them? There’s a lot of fears that go through these parents and it’s just a constant fear and as a result when those fears are the only thing that parents thinking about while they’re having time with the kids it can unfortunately strengthen any alienation tactics that the other parent has done if that’s what’s going on.
Barbara La Pointe: What you don’t want to have happen starts to happen and that’s a really wild thing about divorce is that it makes us confront every fear and that’s why I love working with divorce because it’s such a call for healing and empowerment and we see that in so many high conflict or abusive divorces the parental alienation that we’ve discussed clearly and correct me if you think I’m wrong Andrew we don’t know how to lovingly uncouple we don’t know how to lovingly divorce and we don’t know how to lovingly co-parent.
Andrew Folkler: I think you are absolutely correct with how emotionally charged divorce can be it’s so easy to turn it into a black and white I’m good you’re bad situation and it’s so easy to forget that it takes two to tango. When the marriage falls apart it’s really both parents are making mistakes and both parents are failing to come together and reconcile. And so when both spouses make their mistakes and they’re not really supporting the other spouse what ends up happening is sometimes one spouse like you were saying earlier gets angry to the point where they take out all that anger onto the other spouse and in some cases on to the children as well in various forms be it through parental alienation or it can also just be in the form of just child abuse in general or even just negligence.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely it’s so draining and stressful and unfortunately our children get caught in the middle of the conflict.
Andrew Folkler: They definitely do. When divorces tend to come up children will react differently depending on usually their age category and of course their personality it’s not uncommon to hear that children will blame themselves for the divorce usually they will wish that maybe they did something differently or maybe they’ll project that the divorce is the result of them not behaving or not being good enough to keep the family together and as a result a lot of that self-blame gets bottled up and it just stews and it fosters on the inside.
Andrew Folkler: Children then might have trouble focusing in school or during co-curricular activities just because even if they’re not consciously thinking about it just in the back of their mind they’re going to be thinking about the divorce and why their parents can’t be together.
Barbara La Pointe: It’s going to show up in ways like that attention span, anger, addiction to video games, but bottom line we know that children are going to act out what is unresolved between mom and dad what’s unresolved between the parents is going to be acted out through the children we forget that when we’re in the middle of a war and we want to win.
Andrew Folkler: That’s absolutely true. I did read where younger kids will react differently versus adolescents versus teenagers. There was an article where I read younger kids would end up developing fears that if the parents stopped loving each other then what’s the stop the parent from loving the child and so overall if you’re in a situation where you’re going to be going through a divorce and you have those younger kids what they’re going to need most is the reassurance that they’re always going to be loved and that this is not their fault.
Andrew Folkler: What the narcissistic parent’s going to do is they’re going to convey to the child that the other parent is trouble, the other parent is not to be trusted, that the other parent doesn’t care, doesn’t want to be with them, doesn’t love them, and that it is by the good graces of the narcissistic parent that that child is safe, fed, and taken care of. And so what this ends up doing is it creates a sense of codependency on the narcissistic parent and the narcissistic parent has total control of the child and in a sense puts them in a two-dimensional box.
Andrew Folkler: For adolescents, those are the kids that tend to blame themselves the most believing that if they had done things differently that maybe mom and dad would be willing to stay together and they’re trying to wrap their head around why mom and dad can’t be together and then for teenagers, teenagers have all those hormones going through they’re going through puberty and life is already a chaotic mess and so adding on a divorce on top of that can lead them to be more angry.
Andrew Folkler: Sometimes passive aggression but we could also be just active aggression so it depends and sometimes those teens may even go into the point of taking sides trying to play detective and assess what’s going on or they might just close up bottle up and detach themselves from everything to a point of numbness.
Barbara La Pointe: There’s so many hurts and wounds that happen during divorce to children that they’re gonna have to work out at some point in time and if we can just assist them by being loving because that’s how a child’s inner self-worth is formed it’s by the attunement firstly of their mother and the attunement of their biological parents that love and attunement that parents shower down on their child and so hopefully that’s not lost in a divorce but something good to remember I guess.
Andrew Folkler: It’s definitely very difficult as a child going through divorce simply because they do carry that everywhere with them and they lose the opportunity to really get that attunement that you were speaking of. I remember during the divorces I went through where school was less of a priority and for someone like myself I’ve always been your typical A student.
Andrew Folkler: I’ve always been someone who would do really well in school and would see the patterns and be at math science and English and be able to always be in that top echelon in the class and I remember when my dad was getting a divorce just in 2012 or 2013 I reached a point where I stopped caring. I had a full ride engineering scholarship I had all these great things going for me and I realized that that was all going to end, it didn’t matter that I had a full ride engineering scholarship. It wasn’t going to work out and the divorce ended up killing it.
Barbara La Pointe: And divorce does kill a lot doesn’t it?
Andrew Folkler: Yeah absolutely does.
Barbara La Pointe: I’ve heard of children that don’t finish high school so it really derails us derails our kids.
Andrew Folkler: That’s why you and I are such huge advocates for reconciliation or working towards at least in a makeable divorce where you’re not putting the kid through or even just putting yourselves through the trials of family court and if things don’t work well within the marriage and it has to end at least end it on a positive note so that way you can look back in the future and say I love this person at one point of time but at least it didn’t turn into this full scale war.
Barbara La Pointe: If couples can do that and individuals can do that that is an ideal scenario but unfortunately we see so many worst case scenarios in divorce definitely a divorce lawyer once said to me that divorce is a marathon it’s not a sprint and we do need lawyers truly family court is a last resort option but again we’re not seeing that either but it really is the last place you’d ever want to go it’s the unsafest place for children mothers and fathers.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely true. One of the things that I read was when it comes to divorce and with your child you’re going to want to have a certain plan or certain set of steps that you want to follow as far as how to break it down to them and this will be something that will include in the downloadable document below so definitely be sure to check that out download it print it save it for any use or even if it’s just for somebody that you know who is going through this kind of situation.
Andrew Folkler: So obviously the first thing is always have a plan you want to discuss with your spouse that you’re going to have to explain it to the child it’s going to have to be a calm and neutral explanation you’re going to want to talk to them as a couple because you don’t want either parent not fairly represented.
Andrew Folkler: You want to just explain calmly that the marriage is no longer working and as a result you’re taking the next best step to ensure that everyone is happy and then your next step after that is you want to avoid any blaming behavior you want to make sure you’re not putting any blame on to anybody so that way the child understands that it’s not mom’s fault. It’s not dad’s fault. It’s not the child’s fault. This is just how you’re going to solve this marital dispute and from there you can start to explain to the child that their life is not going to change that their life is going to be very similar to what it is now.
Andrew Folkler: There might be some small changes as far as maybe who takes the kid to school or who’s going to take them to soccer practice or sports or any other co-curricular activities or when they’re going to see which parent is going to be in charge of which days as far as where the kid is going to be staying with them and another thing that you would want to do is explain the situation to the teachers prior to speaking to the kids.
Andrew Folkler: This way if the child acts out in school they’re not being hammered down on by the teacher the teacher is probably just going to see this erratic behavior out of nowhere and they’re not going to really understand what’s going on maybe the more intuitive ones might ask you but it’s better to keep the teachers informed so that way you can add them on to your support team for the child again this is for helping the kid work through all these emotions that they’re going to be experiencing.
Andrew Folkler: Another good point is to speak to them at a time where the child can think about it you don’t want to obviously talk about divorce right during their exam period. You don’t want to talk to them right before they need to do something that’s going to be a very high stress kind of situation, and unfortunately, sometimes it does unfold that way life’s biggest challenges just happen at the worst moments possible but giving them a time to think about it maybe at the beginning of a weekend gives them a chance to process and sit through all of those emotions you want to make sure that you reassure the child that this is not their fault.
Andrew Folkler: You want to reassure them and make sure they understand that again this is the best solution that you are going to follow for this marital dispute let them know that the reactions are normal and be cognizant that their reactions are going to be different like I was saying earlier and like you were saying Barbara some of them may bottle it up some of them will dissociate some of them will try and change the topic and go into denial. Some of them might get angry those reactions are normal and it is important to be empathetic to those reactions and not turn that into something that can lead to a more high conflict situation.
Andrew Folkler: And then the last point is to have follow-up conversations you’re going to want to continue to bring that assurance that the child’s life is going to go on that both parents are going to still love the child and that no matter what they’re going to take care of the child and make sure that the child is happy.
Barbara La Pointe: The child is happy and the child’s number one but I really appreciate these healing truly very loving solutions that you just outlined because it doesn’t always happen but I’m glad you outlined them there because at the end of the day really children just want to know your mommy loves you your dad loves you we love you and that they’ll never lose their parents that probably cannot be said enough to kids to your children obviously.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely it’s a really scary process because if your parents can lose love with each other then it gives the impression that love is conditional it gives the impression that, what if something goes wrong and the parent stops loving the child? And that’s a scary thought to put upon a child.
Barbara La Pointe: It really truly is as much as you can keep love respect and rapport with the other parent alive the better off every member of the family is going to be. I think that a mother needs to feel respect and rapport and safety to hand their child off to their now separated partner to their dad. even in a divorce I think a mom still needs to feel love and rapport to just let their child go off to their dad I don’t feel that I know that. That’s a fact Andrew if we can just keep that alive as much as possible.
Andrew Folkler: I definitely agree and unfortunately sometimes it doesn’t go this way at least in my experience I was six years old when my parents divorced and at best I had them both sit down and talk to me but there was no follow-up conversations there was no explanations on why this is happening or any sense of reassurance. Granted this was 20 years ago so I don’t remember much of it but I do remember the difficulties that came from it and it wasn’t uncommon to see both myself and my brother just glue our attention to something more entertaining and that would take our minds off of the conflict that was going around.
Andrew Folkler: And in our case it was PlayStation it was an easy way to avoid conflict and avoid being involved in the ugly disputes. But like we were saying this would be the best practice as far as working with your child and giving them as many tools as you can to help them work through this process because like we said over 50% of marriages are ending in divorce and the percentage is even higher with step families and it’s going to impact everyone. Not only the kid not only yourselves but also the kids it’s going to impact the people that they see on your side of the family on the other side of the family and it gets even more complicated when one party is a high conflict personality.
Barbara La Pointe: So really it comes back to getting support and reaching out for the right support especially with those high conflict personalities and co-parenting is something brand new that you have to learn so why not get that neutral party to support you.
Andrew Folkler: I think going in full circle that’s where the divorce coach would come in to play and be able to help out in that instance where knowing these things can help you work with your child to help you work within the divorce and if it is possible it then offers the option of a more amicable divorce not only does that save you money like you were saying but it also saves you time and stress and less gray hair, less frustration, less anxiety, and overall instead of putting money into more and more legal fees you’re now putting that money into your child’s future and your own future.
Barbara La Pointe: It can really help you move out of being a victim in family court to being an empowered person and the quicker you can step into healing and renewing cycles within yourself the better I guess the bottom line and so simply said is that no one should go through a divorce alone. I feel a lot of compassion and empathy for folks that go through divorce Andrew.
Andrew Folkler: It really is a rigorous process. What was it? Wasn’t it Robin Williams who said something like alimony I think he said it takes your balls and rips them out through your wallet or something like that I might have misquoted that but it was something along those lines and that imagery has always stayed with me and I know a lot of the...
Barbara La Pointe: I think a lot of people are laughing listening to that especially men.
Andrew Folkler: Especially man but I know a lot of them do empathize with that sentiment just because from a male perspective they not only feel emasculated having their everything they’ve built just get destroyed but also just being pulled into this ugliness and not knowing where to go next just hammer down that point having a good support team is paramount having the people there to help you. Not just your buddies who can tell you hey man don’t think about it too hard you’re going to have to think about it a little hard and you’re going to have to walk into this knowing that sometimes it’s going to get ugly.
Barbara La Pointe: You have a lot of emotions that need to be processed and at released from your body a lot of emotional processing.
Andrew Folkler: For most guys it’s a hard thing to admit it’s a hard thing to say that these situations are highly emotional and that includes all the anger and frustration.
Barbara La Pointe: When I was researching my book and I interviewed 35 I put a call out to hear about divorce stories because there’s so many powerful divorce stories and I want to be told it was really a call to women but I had men answering the call I had men who wanted to share their divorce story with me and so there’s just so many hurting men out there from divorce absolutely and they’ve got powerful powerful stories just like women.
Andrew Folkler: Like you were saying earlier there are no winners. And so really the best practice is to know what you’re up against to know what solutions are available for you and from there you’re able to take the path of least pain and least financial burden so that moving forward you’re able to retake your life and move forward and be happy and grow and pursue any ventures that you have for yourself.
Barbara La Pointe: Hopefully there’s so many powerful lessons that you can learn in divorce so many ways you can step into your own empowerment and truly invite anyone listening to this podcast at any point try and make a divorce by design for yourself and really craft out those divorce goals craft out your divorce vision I guess in closing don’t wait to start your life until your divorce is over because you don’t know how long it’s going to take.
Barbara La Pointe: So start your life right now with your divorce goals your divorce vision and your divorce plan you need a divorce plan and that’s another great reason to have a divorce coach don’t expect your family lawyer to do it and you’re called to listen to this podcast you’re probably the one who’s going to bring love back into your family tree.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely and just to re-emphasize your point your divorce lawyer is going to say I’m not a social worker. I know we said this multiple times throughout this podcast but again they’re going to keep saying they’re not a social worker so they’re not going to be able to help with these points.
Barbara La Pointe: And you can really discover your own empowerment when you have to deal with probably a difficult personality I wouldn’t really describe family lawyers as easygoing casual personalities these are very intense personalities that’s why they’re in family court to begin with so you can really step into your own empowerment by learning how to navigate these personalities and really ask for what you need from your family lawyer and ask for your divorce plan from your family lawyer.
Barbara La Pointe: Please inform your family lawyer if you think your partner is high conflict or in our statistic please bring that to your family lawyer’s awareness and really advocate for yourself with your family lawyer and not expect your family lawyer to advocate for you because they don’t always do that so it’s a powerful way to learn how to advocate for yourself and your family with your lawyer with the system with your ex-partner so many perspectives that want to be heard and honored.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely so one thing you did mention earlier it was having divorce goals divorce vision and a divorce plan so just real quickly what kind of goals should a person have as far as divorce goals go and from there we can expand into a vision and plan.
Barbara La Pointe: Personal and financial goals. So what do you want? Personally getting back to those reasons that led you to getting a divorce maybe what are those personal reasons I don’t know what they are they’re different for every woman but might be to speak her truth have freedom maybe she wanted a different lifestyle maybe she wanted a different relationship with her children.
Barbara La Pointe: Maybe she wanted to escape abuse but to move towards those goals and then have those divorce goals around division of property those financial goals for your new life that you’re being held accountable to right now wherever you are right now not waiting until it’s over until your divorce is over and just really focused on those goals of how are you going to cross the finish line sometimes divorces can last two three four five six seven eight years.
Barbara La Pointe: So how are you going to cross the finish line because no one’s going to push you across the finish line except yourself so it’s truly a time to be proactive and making divorce goals and having a divorce vision for your new life your new transformation is something that’s urgent they can’t wait on.
Andrew Folkler: So it sounds like the goals really do go back to what we were talking about with Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of human needs you want your goals to retake your safety to retake your finances to be stable and be at a point where you can grow as a person and work your way back up to the self-actualization and not only for yourself but to promote that environment for any children that you have and then those goals come together and form the vision and with the vision you can make a plan on how to get there.
Barbara La Pointe: A great way to work it backwards and not to mention all those parenting goals and those co-parenting goals that you’ll want to create so that you can have the very best life post divorce possible.
Andrew Folkler: Is there any last minute thoughts that you have or anything that we might have missed as we were going through this?
Barbara La Pointe: It’s such a huge topic I know we have a lineup of fabulous guests coming on so they’ll be able to bring so much more to it.
Andrew Folkler: In that case I think that’s a wrap for today thank you for taking the time to be with us today if you enjoyed this episode be sure to subscribe to our channel either on YouTube or through our podcast as well if you have any further questions I definitely recommend checking out Barbara La Pointe at her website barbaralapointe.com. Feel free to suggest us any podcast episode ideas or any questions that you’re unsure about concerns that you have if you have any questions for me feel free to reach out to me at startnow@andrewfolkler.com or email barbaralapointe@gmail.com and if you are looking for a divorce coach I just happened to know one.
Barbara La Pointe: Haha thanks Andrew.
Andrew Folkler: If you are looking for a divorce coach definitely reach out to Barbara she is a wonderful person to work with and she can also provide you an opportunity to get those plans going and to really know and be clear as far as what will come ahead and as always thank you for taking the time to be with us at the broken family podcast day where we discuss and help you find solutions to divorce parental alienation and high conflict relationships.
Andrew Folkler: Thank you everyone.
Barbara La Pointe: Good night Andrew.