Transcription
Andrew Folkler:
Alrighty, I think we’re recording now. Alrighty, and welcome everyone to another episode of Broken Families, where we host conversations on divorce, parental alienation, and high conflict relationships.
Andrew Folkler:
My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe:
And I’m Barbara La Pointe.
Andrew Folkler:
Alrighty, today we are going to dive into the topic of high conflict personalities and the relationships that we have with these people. So Barbara, take it away.
Barbara La Pointe:
High conflict personalities. Thank goodness I’m feeling peaceful. Have met a high conflict personality before, Andrew?
Andrew Folkler:
I grew up with one. So definitely something I’m very familiar with. And I’ve also seen how it can, in a way, it’s contagious where like as a person who would be boiling bit of rage, you know, they’re just constantly frustrated, constantly unhappy. And in many ways insecure, how it can spread out to other people and in a way sour the mood so that the moment they come into contact with other people, you know, you just know something’s going to go down, something’s going to be wrong.
Barbara La Pointe:
Sour the mood. Yes. Well, they do tend to suck all the oxygen out of the air, don’t they?
Andrew Folkler:
Absolutely. And that’s why it’s an emotionally draining thing too. You’re constantly on edge wondering, you know, am I going to walk into a maelstrom today? You know?
Barbara La Pointe:
Yes, I hear as a life coach and divorce coach, a lot of women describe it as walking on eggshells.
Andrew Folkler:
Absolutely. Eggshells or thin ice. I mean, it’s, it’s always a very apprehensive feeling, you know. So how would we best define a high conflict personality? You know, for the average person, conflict may be a spectrum of things. How would we define someone who’s on the higher end of that spectrum?
Barbara La Pointe:
Great question, Andrew. And I think you already actually started describing that high conflict personality or someone who has conflict behavior in the, the emotionality of the, of the person you were describing. So those emotions are intensified and they show up a lot in high, high intensification. So that’s one of the qualities of someone that offers us conflict behavior.
Barbara La Pointe:
Another trait is they are how these unmanaged emotions and they have patterns and they’re thinking of all or nothing extremes or all or nothing patternings.
Andrew Folkler:
Okay. Kind of reminds me of the mindset of me versus the world, you know, like the world is against me, the world is out to get me. And so they’ve got, not only do they have their backup and they’re, they’re constantly worried about yet another fight, you know, they’ve, they’ve turned everything into a fight for their, for their worldview or their perspective. Would that be correct?
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, that does resonate with me because HCPs, we’ll call them HCPs in this conversation, high conflict personalities, are unable to look inside and reflect inside. So there is a lot of blaming, blaming as, as you, blaming the world, you know, it’s not their problem. In fact, they can’t see their part in any problem that they’ve probably created. So definitely they are preoccupied with blaming others, blaming the world, skilled blame, blame shifters sometimes I call them, more commonly they might be called manipulators.
Barbara La Pointe:
The solutions that they offer up in a relationship when the conflict shows up because of their all or none thinking are usually extreme. In divorce, we might see this like you, you do what I want or I’m going to take custody of the kids. So the solutions are also extreme getting back to that extreme behaviors. The extreme behaviors might include threats, threats of custody, threats of violence. So those are some of the patterns, behavioral patterning of someone that is HCP. Those are qualities of conflict behavior.
Barbara La Pointe:
I used to always try and avoid conflict, but you can learn a lot through conflict and you can learn a lot by dealing with high conflict personalities.
Andrew Folkler:
Absolutely. And what would be a healthy way of addressing conflict within a relationship, considering that, well, it, so we have one end of the spectrum where they’re putting out these obscene demands there. And with these obscene demands come these solutions that are one sided and very beneficial to them, but not and obviously at the expense to the other person.
Andrew Folkler:
And if we were to just pause for a moment and look at what would be a healthy relationship and where conflict is mitigated and understood. And not as a threat to either person. Maybe it’s a, maybe, you know, different interests that’s perfectly understandable. But at the same time, it doesn’t evolve into something detrimental to either side. How would we best explain it? I mean, as far as quality conflict resolution.
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, let’s explore that. Let’s go, let’s go deeper into what a healthy relationship looks like. And maybe we don’t know if we’ve always been entangled or messed with a HCP or someone with a narcissistic personality disorder. But one thing that comes up really quick for me is that we probably would have healthy boundaries. So if I were in a relationship, even a working relationship, we would have healthy boundaries. And sometimes, sometimes those boundaries are really tested or become non-existent when we are in a relationship with a toxic HCP.
Andrew Folkler:
Gotcha. That’s definitely a good point. Boundaries are something that I would imagine a high conflict personality would look to override or maybe try and be in a position where those boundaries don’t apply to them.
Barbara La Pointe:
Absolutely. And the receiver, the other person might not have a sense of what a strong boundary feels like in his or her body. And that will show up when they’re confronted with the HCP.
Andrew Folkler:
All right. So boundaries would definitely be a very good way of demonstrating a healthy relationship, whether let’s add two more just so that way the audience would have a good, well-rounded understanding before we move on. What else would a healthy relationship have as far as dealing with conflict?
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, so it’s such an important thing to know. But I would imagine, let’s look at what an HCP does or a narcissist does. So they’re always right. So they’re always right. And you don’t need to say more than that. They’re usually always right. So there isn’t that safe place where both opinions can be respected. Because usually the HCP is kind of especially narcissistic personality disorder with combined with HCP. They’re usually looking down on you. Okay. And they’re usually right. So links way back to that high extreme thinking or black and white thinking where there’s, you know, they’re right, you’re wrong.
Andrew Folkler:
Sounds like humility would be that second one then. I mean, since the HCP is constantly saying that they’re right, they’re being condescending to the opposite person. It’s the absence of humility that is really harming the relationship and harming both individuals in different ways. And so we have boundaries. Humility would then probably be our number two then.
Barbara La Pointe:
And for me, for me, number three would be respect, which is absent when you’re dealing with the HCP because they usually can’t see beyond their own lens or beyond their own worldview. And they’re always reflecting back defensively. Definitely. Would respect be a good number three?
Andrew Folkler:
I think respect would be an amazing one. I mean, it ties it all together and it forms a really nice triangle. You know, I mean, each one depends on each on the other on the other two. And you really can’t have a relationship without those three. And I’m sure there’s more things that we need in relationship. But for the purposes of brevity, I think this really nails it down. And so where do all these HCPs come from? I mean, it just feels like there’s so many people who are in unhappy relationships, be it romantic work relationships, or even within the family. And they’re, it just feels like these people are constantly looking for a fight, constantly looking to get into conflict. Where do they come from?
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, HCPs are definitely always looking for a fight. They make us want they make us want to take flight. They love conflict. And they’re actually, you know, geared for it. They’re made for it. And they’re more common than you might think. One in 25 people that walk around on the planet are HCP. So one in 25 people. So chances are you and I are going to run into one next week. And, you know, they say 4% to 12% of CEOs are high conflict or even sociopathic in their personality makeup.
Andrew Folkler:
That’s a crazy statistic.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, it is, isn’t it? And these personality types used to be very beneficial to us and to society when we were heading out to war. And we need frontline warriors to head out. But how do they function in today’s society? Well, they test us, they create a lot of problems if we don’t avoid them. And some of them can be downright dangerous and really wreak havoc or even destroy our lives. So it’s, it’s a fun topic, but it’s a serious topic. But your question to me was where did they come from?
Barbara La Pointe:
And I’m not sure. I mean, I don’t know if there’s a little HCP manufacturing factory out there sitting them out testing all the empaths and, and people.
Andrew Folkler:
Well, my theory would be more along the lines of – I mean, life is both a bit of nature and nurture. And so a lot of high conflict personalities, they tend to be very insecure within themselves. And in a way, it reminds me a lot about there’s, there’s a book, The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. And if anything, I think he would fit a good example. So for the viewers who don’t know, in this book, it’s Dorian Gray is a very young impressionable young man whose, whose youth is probably the highlight of his entire existence. And he has two main influencers who one representing obviously being good and compassionate and caring and the other representing debauchery and promiscuity and all sorts of negative behaviors.
Andrew Folkler:
His friend who leans towards the good paints him a portrait and Dorian Gray and his frustration says, well, why is it that when I age, you know, all this beauty is going to leave and the painting never goes away. The painting remains immortal. It just looks young forever young. Why can’t it be the other way where the painting takes all the ugliness of age, and I remain beautiful all the time. So throughout the book, he goes through all these moments where he engages in more and more bad behavior and high conflict behavior.
Andrew Folkler:
And what ends up happening is it’s almost like a like a magic spell or something where the portrait starts taking on those negative characteristics. You might have heard before where people say, you know, you could look a person in the eyes and you can see on their face the, you know, what kind of person they are. And it was very much this instance where his portrait got uglier and uglier as he engaged in more and more bad behavior. And his youth stayed with him.
Andrew Folkler:
Now I won’t spoil how the book ends, but where I was going with this was that high conflict personality is constantly wanting to shift the blame outward. And it’s largely due to a sense of internal insecurity because they see the ugliness in them.
Andrew Folkler:
They see that portrait of them that they have hidden in their attic and they don’t want anyone to look at them and fault them for being such a horrible person.
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, that, I mean, that’s a beautiful story you just told in a beautiful metaphor kind of rings more true for me, especially for the narcissistic personality. But I do agree with you that HCPs have some working awareness or self-awareness, but not a lot, right?
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, definitely not.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah
Andrew Folkler:
I mean, it does take a great deal of humility to admit your own mistakes and admit that, you know, that you’re not perfect and that we are not always going to get things right or sometimes we misunderstand things. And so with those ruthless standards that they hold on themselves, they project that insecurity and anger outwards to other people because at least that’s how I’ve come to interpret that.
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, it’s, I mean, it’s true that HCPs and especially the narcissists are, they are empty inside. It is sort of transference of an emptiness inside. When you get into personality disorders, some, like with the, and narcissists, they even have a lack of ability to love or feel empathy for another. So all we can really do is have empathy for those, those individuals because they aren’t able to manage their behavior. They can’t manage their emotions.
Barbara La Pointe:
And really, they walk through life creating problems, blaming it on someone else, pointing the finger at someone else. And, you know, they have a lot of interpersonal difficulties in their, their relationships. So, so, yeah, they have to carry that portrait with them that’s rotting. And unfortunately, these people don’t really change. So that portrait is there, it’s, it’s rotting. You know, I like that as a metaphor, even just for our energetic body or our aura or our conscience, however you want to frame that, we carry that, they carry that with them. And we have to, we don’t carry that for them and create that boundary or we separate out from the HCP.
Barbara La Pointe:
It’s so, so helpful to, to recognize them though, first.
Andrew Folkler:
Definitely. And so to kind of backtrack it a little bit, going back to the narcissistic personality disorder. It’s very common to see, especially on the internet, how they attract the empaths and how there’s always like this, what would be fated magnetism between the two. Could you talk a little bit more about that and why that occurs and what happens when, when these two personalities come together?
Barbara La Pointe:
Beautiful question, because it is quite common that an empath and a narcissist or a peaceful, you know, person and an HCP will come together. And I think when they come together, the HCP doesn’t change, but the narcissist doesn’t change either. But the receiver, the person who partners with that person can learn and change, evolve and grow.
Andrew Folkler:
But usually at the, usually it would involve a high price of like pain, trauma and frustration, I imagine though, right? Especially if the HCP puts the empath through a lot of rigorous either abuse or some, just the subject of a lot of negative behavior, I imagine.
Barbara La Pointe:
Absolutely. I mean, usually, usually it really is a form of abuse. It’s a control dynamic as well. Extreme examples of people with HCP or narcissistic personality disorder are happy in their behavior. They enjoy making it difficult for the other person. They enjoy making the other person suffer. And a lot of it goes into humiliation, domination and control. So HCPs are controlling, narcissistic people are also very controlling. So imagine, you know, if you become the container for humiliation, domination and control of another, it really makes you question yourself.
Barbara La Pointe:
I was recently watching an interview with Bill Eddy, founder, co-founder of the High Conflict Institute, where he said whenever he would go in for a day of mediation, if he had, one day he was going home and he’d been a lawyer and mediator for 10 years. And he started questioning himself, like sort of feeling inside, like he wasn’t good at his job and he wasn’t competent. And then he asked himself, oh, did I have an HCP in my office today? And he in fact had had an HCP couple at 10 a.m. that same day and sort of absorb their behavior. So he began to doubt himself.
Barbara La Pointe:
Imagine a lawyer, mediator, you know, co-founder of the High Conflict Institute and he began to self-doubt himself after it was being exposed to some, to an HCP. Again, they kind of are looking for conflict, looking down on you, blaming you. So once he noticed that, he could self-regulate. But if you were to put that more in the context that you mentioned, if you were in a relationship with someone who is high conflict or narcissistic personality disorder, well, you can’t really win. You’re never right. It really affects one’s deserved ability, I would say. And in fact, you can see women who just feel like I don’t, I don’t deserve anything. You know, he’s right.
Andrew Folkler:
And so in that case, with the best practice then to get away as far away as possible from HCP, considering that the relationship will only involve one person being a participant in simulation and subjugation and being in a sense submissive to the HCP, wouldn’t that mean then for them best practice to get away?
Barbara La Pointe:
A long time ago, someone said that to me, you know, you need to sidestep this person, just step aside. And I didn’t want to do that. And the concept, so yes, the answer, Andrew, is yes. If you can sidestep or just get away from an HCP person or a narcissistic personality disordered person, you have a lot to gain because you can’t really win with these people. And it’s very hard to self regulate when, when you’re involved with these people as well. So there’s kind of a common saying out there for people, doesn’t have to be a woman, separating out or divorcing from an HCP. It’s called gray rock.
Barbara La Pointe:
And it’s when you have no contact with that person at all. Okay. So that means no texting. It means no phone calls. It means no emails. And because of kind of that trauma bond, it can be, it can be hard to do, can be hard to step back from from the HCP. And the reason why it’s hard to step back is because they have these contagious emotions. And you mentioned that at the beginning of the of our talk today.
Andrew Folkler:
Definitely. So let’s take this up a notch, then say, for example, that HCP is someone within the family. How would you address that if it’s, you know, if it’s someone that you are either related to by blood or, you know, maybe it’s a child is unfortunately developing some of these behaviors, how would you work around that? Would you end up having to to set up those boundaries and then every time they don’t recognize those boundaries, you just take a step back? Or would we, I mean, especially like, you know, if it’s like a, I don’t know, say a cousin or something like that, you know, where it’s just, they’re, they’re not respecting those boundaries. They’re starting more and more conflicts. How would you best address that? Would you just take a step back?
Barbara La Pointe:
That’s such a good question, because it could be a family member. It could be a spouse or intimate partner. And there are times like when it’s a family member, or you have a child or children with this type of person that you can’t step back and you can’t do that gray rock. So then what do you do? well, thankfully, you’ve listened to this podcast and you recognize traits of a high conflict personality. Otherwise, you could just stay on the merry-go-round probably forever, right?
Andrew Folkler:
Definitely.
Barbara La Pointe:
And the thing is with when you enter into conflict with a high conflict personality, of course, there’s no resolution. There’s always just a heightening of conflict. So resolution forever on the table. However, if you do have to communicate with these individuals to answer your question, Andrew, you can employ a strategy called BIFF, which B-I-F-F, which stands for an acronym for Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm.
Barbara La Pointe:
This is a communication protocol that anyone can use with a high conflict personality. And I can’t take credit for it, because this was founded at the High Conflict Institute in San Francisco. But that strategy is available for us, even with a cousin, all the way through to a girlfriend or parents.
Andrew Folkler:
So let’s walk through a hypothetical scenario. Say, for example, you have a romantic couple, and one of them is a high conflict personality. How would that, how would the person who’s dealing with the HCP, how would they deal with this person with the BIFF strategy? What would that look like?
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, the great thing about the BIFF strategy is that at least you’re not meeting them with the same energy that they’re giving to you. So because then it’s like pouring gas on a fire. Well, by employing a BIFF strategy, you’re really neutralizing it. So by using brief language, there isn’t a lot there that can, because it’s brief, that can emotionally trigger the highly emotional HCP. So you keep it brief, almost like a business letter, even like a business note, it’s brief.
Barbara La Pointe:
It’s informative, because you’re getting what you need, and you’re communicating what needs to be communicated. Friendly, because we want to be friendly. I would say not be too friendly. I always like to say not too friendly. You want to give them anything that could feed them. So you never want to feed a narcissist, for example, with narcissistic supply. And I don’t think it’s very different with the HCPs. Anything that they can create conflict on, they’re going to jump on. So friendly, friendly enough. Cordial might be another word. And the last one is firm. So you do, and that goes back to what we were saying about boundaries, and you do have to be firm.
Andrew Folkler:
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And just so we can recap this, and we’re brief to the point, we make sure that we’re not giving them too much information that can instigate another fight or another conflict. But we want to not give too little information where they are prodding and prodding, trying to start a fight. So we’re brief, we answer, we give them just enough, so that way, there is no conflict. And they can move on, we can move on, and no harm, no foul.
Andrew Folkler:
And so that kind of ties in with the informative part where we just give them just enough, but not too much, not too little. It’s kind of that Goldilocks moment. Then you’re friendly enough where you are not too suspicious, you’re not trying to arouse suspicion by being overly friendly in a situation where you might normally have been angry or scared or worried. And then, but you’re also firm and holding down to your boundaries and your principles.
Barbara La Pointe:
Exactly. Well, like good summary, and the neat thing about doing that is you can use these BIFF responses in any situation. So we might run an HCP in a personal relationship, but also like we mentioned earlier, you could even use a BIFF response on a reply on Facebook.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, absolutely. Or at work, if you’re dealing with a difficult boss.
Barbara La Pointe:
Great example, Andrew. And a lot of times, bosses are HCP because we know that high conflict personalities are often attracted to positions of power. And in a sense, powerful positions, so that they can hold power over other people. Awesome example.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, a lot of that seems to ring towards that sense of control. You know, they have more control over other people over what at least they give the illusion of control of other people and what happens in their life, especially if they’re worried about those chaotic elements that we just call regular life that happen. And, you know, when they’re upset and worried about the world is out to get them, having that sense of control is tantamount to anything. And they’re willing to step over anyone to get that.
Barbara La Pointe:
Absolutely, true. Stepping over someone to step themselves up, not afraid to break the rules, all traits of HCPs and really definitely can really challenge us deeply. And definitely can.
Andrew Folkler:
Wanting to circle back a little bit, especially with the bit on narcissists and empaths and how the two tend to come together. Oftentimes, there’s an element of wanting to fix someone, you know, you, you see the damaged soul in them and you want to swoop in, save the day and or maybe you just see the incredible potential in them and you want to to just, just do a little bit to get them in the right direction. It’s a noble kind of feeling, but at the same time, it never works out the way it’s intended. What are your thoughts on that aspect?
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, well, my first thought is save yourself first. You know, I think we underestimate the damage that these personalities can have on our lives and the negative impact that they can have on our lives. In fact, narcissistic abuse or abuse and high conflict is some of the most complex abuse to overcome, heal from and thrive afterwards. But kind of the golden rule when you’re dealing with high conflict personalities is not to confront them and not to point out, hey, Andrew, you’re a high conflict personality. You know, that is the last thing that you wanted to do and, and do you know why?
Andrew Folkler:
I have an intuitive understanding why, but I’d like to hear your explanation.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yes, because well, sometimes these HCPs will then turn around and get angry at you, but explode on you. But most importantly, what they will do when they’re triggered in this way is they’ll say, you know, I don’t need counseling. I’m not an HCP. You’re the one who needs it. But if you, even as that evolves, they could actually make you a target of blame. So then, you know, you’ve gone from trying to help someone to the flip side where you’ve actually become a target of blame for an HCP and just going back to earlier, they love to blame people.
Barbara La Pointe:
And then they can make, you know, a project out of destroying your reputation, destroying your life, destroying your role of mother, destroying, you know, and that happens. And so once you go there, it’s very hard to remove that target of blame off your back if an HCP has put it there. And so sometimes we just don’t know when we’re trying to fix them, we’re trying to point out, you know, look what you’re doing. But again, we know that this behavior doesn’t change.
Andrew Folkler:
No, it doesn’t. And kind of tying in the example of the picture of Dorian Gray, you can’t show someone like that, the skeletons in their closet. I mean, they, because it’s already deep in the back of their mind, they, while they might know it’s there subconsciously, they refuse to acknowledge it. And, and like you were saying, would are more than happy to project all of that anger onto the opposite, onto the other person.
Barbara La Pointe:
Absolutely. And it’s, you know, I can, I can probably postulate and even speak from experience that it’s very uncomfortable to be the receiver of that or to have that target on your back. And once it’s there, it’s with an HCP, it’s hard to remove. It’s hard to remove.
Andrew Folkler:
So one thing you’ve mentioned throughout this episode is the need to self-regulate and to work on the self as far as when dealing with the HCPs. Could you elaborate a little bit more on, on that process? So that way, since fixing them is not the right direction to go, working on ourselves seems to be the right pathway to take, right?
Barbara La Pointe:
Yes, I think once you build awareness, because there’s, you know, we’re going to run into them wherever we go, because they’re around us all the time and our culture is manufacturing them and we’re seeing them in, in Hollywood or popular culture. And they’ve always been with us since the beginning of time. Factually, look through our family tree, we’re going to see, you know, great uncles or great aunts, you’ll probably be able to recognize more HCPs in your family tree.
Barbara La Pointe:
But how do we manage them once we, once we know we’re in a relationship with them, we want to unhook from them, unhook from their contagious emotions or even their conflict or abuse is probably not finding compassion in conflict, but finding self-compassion.
Barbara La Pointe:
So you really have to turn, turn the awareness inside. You know what, there’s reasons why women, there’s very specific reasons why women are men couple with a narcissistic personality person. But then again, you know, if you’re just working in a retail store and your boss is a HCP, we won’t argue your point of attraction there, because we do run into them. But if we actually fall in love with them, then that’s a difference, you know, then it’s different.
Andrew Folkler:
It definitely is a different dynamic. I mean, so like say, for example, you’ve got a difficult boss who doesn’t demonstrate good leadership and who is not only actively hurting his team, but through his, through his or her poor leadership, but they are, in a way, probably maybe even impeding on opportunities for this hypothetical individual. At that point, I could see the frustration because, you know, working on yourself isn’t, oh, it doesn’t sound like the best strategy because, you know, you could be the best person and then you’re still got a terrible boss.
Andrew Folkler:
So as far as how to deal with something like that, it can be a definitely, it can definitely be a really tricky thing, whether you take it up to higher leadership or you, as you were mentioning earlier, transfer out in this sense, would be transferred to another company.
Andrew Folkler:
It definitely can make things really messy really quickly. But once it’s done, you know, it’s kind of like ripping a band-aid off. Once it’s done in that immediate sense of pain is over with, you’re able to heal and work towards your own ambitions.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, absolutely. I guess to get more in control of yourself again, and the focus goes back on yourself when it’s being pulled out by an HCP or in a sense you’re feeding them. But getting back to your workplace scenario, just wanted to highlight that sometimes, and more often than not, these personalities are, in fact, very charming. They can be very charming and delightful individuals, charismatic, if you will.
Barbara La Pointe:
So it’s not like they’re like, you know, ogres going around. They can, they can be darn right charming and highly convincing. In fact, they’re convincing emotions and convincing charm and will often bring in others. We call them negative advocates that get involved, just because, you know, they are so convincing. And so they’re, they’re very convincing in while they’re wreaking havoc.
Andrew Folkler:
And I guess you mentioned negative advocates. What exactly, what role do those negative advocates play in the, in this greater game by the HCP?
Barbara La Pointe:
Well, actually a negative advocate can be anyone from a friend, a colleague in the workplace that gets hooked in by the story or get storyline created by the HCP, gets hooked in by their contagious emotions. Anyone who’s not neutral, all the way up to a negative advocate like a lawyer, acting on behalf of an HCP. We see that in divorce. It’s really not uncommon for an HCP to have an HCP lawyer. That’s not actually uncommon. So, yeah.
Andrew Folkler:
Kind of reminds me of the flying monkeys analogy, you know, where there’s always, I see this a lot, especially on social media, where the high conflict personality will build a team to execute all their, their desires or, or their, their goals and ambitions, you know, and by managing that team, they’re more effective in either denigrating a person or destroying reputations or turning other people against the person that they have their crosshairs on.
Barbara La Pointe:
It’s a very challenging dynamic. And I think when that happens, these flying monkeys are engaged, that victim or receiver of, of the conflict or receiver of the narcissistic abuse, he or she also becomes isolated because now she’s up against the HCP or he or she is up against the HCP and all of their flying monkeys. Yeah, we have more isolated.
Andrew Folkler:
Can definitely be a really a daunting situation. And in that instance, yet again, I could see how some people will not be quite warm to the idea of the solution is get away and focus on yourself and focus on your healing. At the same time, as you mentioned earlier, there really is very little that you can do to win in this kind of in this duel where, you know, it’s you versus that HCP and their regime, you know, especially when it comes to character assassination and things like that, I can see how, how emotionally charged the victim would be if they’re in a situation where they can’t not only that can they are they are they completely unable to fight against this, but they’re seeing things within their life being broken down and taken away from them.
Barbara La Pointe:
I think we’ve really kind of moved this conversation into when someone becomes a target of blame for the for the HCP or Narcissist and and those things start manifesting and yeah, it’s you know, it’s truly, truly painful and you can’t win and sometimes you can’t even escape. HCP such as this such as we’re describing are the ones that love to litigate are the ones that usually are behind high conflict divorces or high conflict relationships. So those are some good examples of the collateral damage that these personalities can create. It’s hard to create co-create anything positive with a high conflict personality.
Andrew Folkler:
Definitely because they want to tear it down right after. Yeah. So in that instance, it’s always something that as individuals, we have to be very conscientious of, you know, as far as assessing the relationships we have with people and how spending time with the wrong people can lead to these scenarios that we were just talking about. And from there, I think that’s where when you’re talking about self-regulation and being able to focus on your own healing and your own boundaries, it’s easier to recognize when these people are trying to insert themselves into our lives.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, for me, I think it really comes down to the strengthening of one’s core boundaries as a safest defense mechanism, you know. Absolutely. And certainly in relationships, some people are more susceptible than others, not in a child-parent relationship, but more in a love relationship. You might be, there’s, you know, you may be more susceptible to HCP personality or narcissistic personality. In the first place? Definitely.
Andrew Folkler:
One book that I’ve read a couple times, I’d show it now on the stream, if I could, but I lent it to a co-worker, so I don’t have it on me right now. But it’s called Conquering Shame and Codependency by Darlene Lancer. Darlene Lancer was a marriage counselor, and this is a book I read a couple years ago, and something that goes along the lines of self-reflection and knowing that you don’t want to put yourself in a situation where you have a lot of residual shame and a sense of codependency on these high conflict personalities.
Andrew Folkler:
I remember reading, when I was reading through the book, and I was going through these different case studies where I’d be reading through it, and I’d be saying, you know, wow, this is such a horrible situation to be in, and I can kind of see why they’re reacting this way, and they’re building out these coping mechanisms and these habits, and hold on a minute, oh no, I have these habits. And just that realization for me, you know, it was just so jarring, because it happened multiple times in the book.
Andrew Folkler:
I’d be reading through it and saying, oh, I have very unhealthy coping mechanisms that I need to address. And so it’s definitely a book I would recommend to the audience. It’s one I’d probably try and read again, just to see if I’ve done any better in the last couple years, but going along the vein of self-reflection and self-improvement and self-healing, this is definitely a book you would want in your arsenal, so definitely wanted to put that out there.
Barbara La Pointe:
I’ll have to check that out, Andrew.
Andrew Folkler:
Dealing with the HCPs, it’s definitely oftentimes it feels like an unwinnable fight. And so I think that the core message in this episode is not to fight on their terms, you know, because if you, if we take the time to try and, if we tell them, hey, you’re being a horrible person, it doesn’t work. If we try and be nice to them and cater for all their needs, wants and desires, that doesn’t work. If, you know, if we try and allow ourselves to be just completely walked upon, that doesn’t work. Nothing seems to work with these people. And so the best thing, the next best thing we can do is to focus more on ourselves and focus more on building a life that we as individuals deserve without allowing someone who’s looking for conflict to walk in and step all over it.
Barbara La Pointe:
That’s so true. And, and just, you know, guarding that life that you deserve, that we deserve. I think the key is just knowledge, awareness, because there’s always red flags within HCP that are there for us to, if we can actually see them.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, absolutely. Real quick, just so that for the audience, I mean, how would we, like, what are the kind of red flags that we should look out for? I know we mentioned a few early on, you know, if they’re overstepping boundaries, if they’re blaming you and they’re trying to take control of parts of our lives, what other red flags should we watch out for so that should someday, next week, when that HCP walks into our life, how do we, how do we know for certain that we’re dealing with a high conflict personality?
Barbara La Pointe:
Oh, that’s such a beautiful question, because we do want to know for certain, because it can be quite confusing and also quite triggering. But again, looking out for those extreme behaviors, looking out for their unmanaged emotions, so that high emotional intensity, whether it’s extreme fear, extreme frustration or extreme anger.
Barbara La Pointe:
Usually, they’re always right. And that’s, I think that’s a glaring red flag. If you’re with someone and they’re always right, no matter what, that is a good one, a good one. All or nothing thinking. What else? And just looking down on you, they have to look down on you to lift themselves up. So if you’re having that feeling, that’s another sign, where you’re feeling put down or, you know, nervous around the HCP, because you feel less than, you know, chances are, it’s an energetic put down or an outright put down. And then lack of regard for others, like just the lack of empathy that they demonstrate in their behavior or in their conversations with you.
Andrew Folkler:
I think that’s a really good summary. And I hope that the people that are listening will kind of have that embedded in their mind. So that way, as they move forward in their lives, they’re, they’re at less of a risk at engaging into a long term and unfortunately destructive relationship with these kind of personalities.
Barbara La Pointe:
Absolutely. I mean, like you’ve kind of said that you can’t win with these personalities, and I’m always coming from their relationship perspective. So you can also can’t mediate with these personalities.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, you just, you really have to step back. Yeah, we were talking earlier about the Biff method and how anyone can do it in there. But there’s, there is actually a whole book on it by Bill Eddy and the Biff method that you can get on Amazon and, you know, get coaching around and just really practice formulating those responses in such a complex world.
Barbara La Pointe:
We live in with social media texting emails. High conflict personality can really knock you off your point of balance when they come at you with some aggressive texts or cruel feedback on Facebook or in a divorce.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, and that definitely looks like it’d be an excellent book to read and to have in your arsenal as far as dealing with these kind of people. So yeah, that’s three books in one episode. That’s pretty good.
Barbara La Pointe:
That’s pretty good. We’ll have to make a book club or a book club for our audience. Lots and lots to learn around high conflict personalities and lots and lots to learn around narcissistic personality disorder to really recognize those red flags and it helps you to put on your armor when you’re dealing with these people so that you don’t get depleted and your self-esteem doesn’t tank. Learning those strategies can can help you break free.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, because it can definitely be emotionally draining like we were saying earlier where when dealing with these people, it not only does it sour your mood and make it such that when you talk to just even normal people who are happy and shipper, it diminishes your experience with everyone else because you’re just emotionally just wiped out after dealing with these kind of people. And so having these strategies will allow you to preserve your emotional integrity and then allow you as an individual to then still be able to live your life as you see fit without having to feel just completely either depleted or wiped out or depressed even.
Barbara La Pointe:
Absolutely. I hear you and I often liken the HCP or NPD to a vampire like they will drain you.
Andrew Folkler:
Psychic vampire. I believe that’s the word for it, psychic vampire. They will, seduce you and walk into your life and then they drain your energy.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, you’re drained. Just that emotional depletion.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, be wary of the psychic vampire.
Barbara La Pointe:
Yeah, you’re drained. Just that emotional depletion.
Andrew Folkler:
Yeah, be wary of the psychic vampire.
Barbara La Pointe:
And do not feed them. Do not feed the narcissist. Do not feed them with your energy, with your words. Go gray rock, use the biff and if you can, you know, remove yourself in terms of gray rock completely, do that and for that self-preservation that you were talking about. Absolutely. Yeah, well wrapping up, I would definitely recommend picking Bill Eddy’s book. He’s kind of the gold standard on high conflict and Ability has also written another book called Five Types of People That Can Ruin Your Life and just, you know, dealing with these people can be annoying and it can also be dangerous. So this is, this is excellent. This is kind of like my Bible when it comes to dealing with sociopaths, narcissists and HCPs.
Andrew Folkler:
Right on. Well, we’ll definitely have all of these book titles and their authors in the downloadable document that will be probably somewhere below. I don’t know exactly where it is yet, but it’ll be somewhere down below where you’ll be able to download this PDF and use it for, for your own personal reference. All of these are free. So we’re happy to help out in any way we can. I think that’s a wrap for today. Is there anything that we missed, Barbara? Any last minute thoughts we want to toss out there before we wrap it up for the day?
Barbara La Pointe:
No, I’m just so glad that you’re making this downloadable document because our readers can just have it right beside them and if you are dealing with a high conflict person, you can have canned responses that you just have right beside you, especially if you’re dealing with one often. You know, you can just look and you can just say, oh, that’s canned response number seven. And that’s how brief and informative it has to be.
Andrew Folkler:
Absolutely. And for me personally, much of life has always been knowing the right thing at the right time. And so that’s why I always like sharing these books and these different ideas and like the, the best strategy is an amazing model that we can use in dealing with people. And so just knowing those little tidbits can go so far in our lives, just being able to protect ourselves. And as we go along, episode to episode, there’s going to be more and more little tidbits that will help you address these different scenarios. And so, yeah, knowing the right thing at the right time, that’s, that’s 95% of what I read for.
Barbara La Pointe:
And you do read. Awesome. And I guess just in closing, Andrew, I’ll just throw it there just because you’re a nice, peaceful person doesn’t mean that you attract or you’re going to encounter nice, peaceful people. So great of these strategies. It was so nice to talk to you today, Andrew.
Andrew Folkler:
Absolutely. Alrighty guys, I think that’s all we have for today. So once again, thanks again, thank you for taking the time to be with us today. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our channel either on YouTube or through the podcast. If you have any further questions or concerns, be sure to send us an email either at barbaralapointe@gmail.com or you can reach me at startnow@andrewfolkler.com. Do not hesitate. I mean, we’re always happy to take on new ideas, address new questions. There’s a lot of things, a lot of different angles to go at. And as always, thank you for taking the time to be with us at the Broken Family podcast today, where we help you discuss and find solutions to divorce parental alienation and high conflict relationships.
Barbara La Pointe:
Thanks, Andrew.
Andrew Folkler:
Thanks, Barbara. It’s always a pleasure.
End of Transcript
Note: This podcast was produced in 2021 in collaboration with Barbara La Pointe Coaching. The downloadable summary for this episode was created for Barbara’s divorce coaching practice. If you would like a copy of the downloadable summary, please go to barbaralapointe.com/podcasts.
To learn more about how divorce coaching can help you, visit Barbara’s website at barbaralapointe.com
