In this episode, Barbara and Andrew walk through nine pitfalls adults make when trying to reconnect with an alienated child.
Note: This podcast was originally hosted on Barbara La Pointe’s website, which has since gone offline. I’ve reposted the episodes here so people still have access to the materials.
Transcript
Andrew Folkler: All righty, and welcome everyone to another episode of Broken Family, where we host conversations on divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m Barbara La Pointe. Today we’re gonna dive deep into the topic of parental alienation, highlighting nine pitfalls to avoid with your alienated child.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, and these are fantastic. I think they’re gonna be really valuable. So I’m just gonna run through a few of them, Andrew. Okay, so again, these are nine things, nine pitfalls that you may want to avoid when seeking to bond with your alienated child. Number one: don’t tell your child that they’re being brainwashed or point out that they’re being alienated.
Barbara La Pointe: What do you think, Andrew?
Andrew Folkler: I think it’s a very strong number one, simply because there’s so many parents out there that want a silver bullet for alienation, and unfortunately, it’s not like that When you tell your child that they’re being alienated or you tell them that they’re being brainwashed, they’re going to react and say, “Are you trying to tell me that I can’t think for myself?
Andrew Folkler: Are you trying to tell me that these aren’t my thoughts, that these aren’t my feelings? How would you know what my feelings are? How would you know what my thoughts are?” And a good example, I think, of this is imagine you go to dinner with your family, with some of your extended family, and you talk to that one person that you disagree with on politics.
Andrew Folkler: And then you tell that person that they are brainwashed, that they are being lied to, that they’re falling for the propaganda, that the government is trying to make them think certain things. And you imagine just how angry that person would be. And it’s gonna be the same kind of feeling when you talk to your alienated child.
Andrew Folkler: You can’t tell them that they’re being brainwashed. You can’t tell them that they’re being manipulated, because they’ve already inculcated these beliefs into their entire way of life. They’ve developed a certain set of guidelines for themself, and for somebody to come in and tell them that they are not living their life as it should be, they’re gonna say, “Well, who are you to tell me what to do?”
Andrew Folkler: Does that make sense?
Barbara La Pointe: It does. And it really does in the context of a break in the bond with the parent and also with parental alienation.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that is just because the child doesn’t respect the parent anymore. When after a certain point where the estrangement has carried on for a certain amount of time, the child is going to treat the parent like a stranger or like that distant uncle or relative that they haven’t had much contact with.
Andrew Folkler: And so to have that person who has no rapport built up come in and tell you, “This is how you should live your life,” they’re not going to respond well. Another common pitfall that kinda links in with this is where many parents are looking for experts to tell their kids, “Hey, you’re being brainwashed.”
Andrew Folkler: And, unfortunately, that doesn’t work either. It doesn’t work if... It’s one thing to have a doctor tell somebody, “Hey, you have these symptoms, and therefore you have this prognosis.” It’s another thing entirely when we’re talking about the psyche, simply because having some random person come up and phone you up and say, “Hey, you’re being brainwashed,” again, it’s someone with no rapport, someone who has no connection to you coming in and telling you how to live your life, and nobody likes that.
Andrew Folkler: And as a result, it’s very jarring, and it can really dramatically hurt your relationship with your child.
Barbara La Pointe: Some great points there, and I think that all nine of these pitfalls to avoid really focus on being neutral and bringing around neutralized language or at least deescalating highly charged emotional languaging.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely. So let’s keep rolling here with, as a parent, and again, we’re talking about when there’s an estrangement or a break in the bond with a parent. Don’t engage in manipulative or abusive behavior. So I’ll highlight these points. Don’t pretend to be a psychologist, no gaslighting please, and do not give your child ultimatums.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, definitely. It goes without saying that we shouldn’t engage in these kind of behaviors, and sometimes when we’re most angry and most upset, it’s easy to give in to these urges because maybe it feels like it’s the only thing that works. The truth is, it is more damaging than you can possibly imagine.
Andrew Folkler: And to put your child through more manipulation and more abuse is going to hurt them and make them less trusting of you in the long term. So when a parent comes in and they’re realizing that they’ve been alienated, and many parents will immediately rush in and start doing as much research as possible.
Andrew Folkler: I was like that. So many parents are doing all this research, and what ends up happening is now they think that they’re an expert. Okay, they’ve done several hours of reading. Now they think they know what’s going on. Now they think that they can just doctor the situation, and it doesn’t quite work that way because you’re gonna find out that many psychologists spend, what is it, six to eight years or so just training to be in a position where they’re able to counsel somebody and stand in a point of neutrality.
Andrew Folkler: It’s not something that you can study up and learn in four hours. It’s not something you can learn in four months. There’s so much more out there. And as you continue down this journey of learning and whether it’s the psychology field in general or parental alienation or high-conflict personalities, you’re going to find out there’s even more and more out there that you just didn’t know.
Andrew Folkler: Just learning from you, Barbara, I’ve learned so much in the last few weeks just talking about the family constellations and Bert Ellinger’s work. These were names that I didn’t know recently. And I’m somebody who’s been reading psychology since I was 13. So I cannot stress enough that there’s so much that we don’t know.
Andrew Folkler: It goes back to that old Socrates quote of “All that I know is that I know nothing.”
Barbara La Pointe: I’ve had those moments, and we don’t get a rule book on, “Here’s your rule book on how to be a parent,” but as long as we can come from an authentic heart-centered space with our parenting, ‘cause we really are always doing the very best we can in every present moment. Are you ready for another one?
Andrew Folkler: Well, I was gonna add in one last little tidbit. I remember watching a video actually by Crystal Shivers. She’s also known as Kid of PAS on Facebook. She does a lot of short little 10-minute videos on parental alienation, and one of the videos that she did that really stood out to me was one where she was discussing the question about what happens if the child doesn’t address you by your parental name, be it mom or dad. What happens if the child addresses you by your actual first name? And so there were many, many comments, but the one that she was talking about in that video was this parent would ignore the child until they came back and addressed them as their parental name.
Andrew Folkler: And so... like mom or dad.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, yep. So the kid come up and be like, “Andrew, I want this. Andrew, I want this. Andrew, I want this.” And he would just straight up ignore the child until the kid would come back and say, “Dad, I need this.” And then would come in and try and serve that parental role.
Andrew Folkler: And I agree with Crystal on this, that that is very manipulative behavior. You may think that you’re trying to assert your position as a parent, and you may think that it’s a means of commanding respect. I don’t think it commands respect. I think it’s demanding respect.
Andrew Folkler: And as a leader, as a parent, which in effect is a leader, you have to know the difference between commanding respect and demanding respect. And manipulative and abusive behavior is demanding respect, and that is always more harmful to the child than you can ever, ever imagine. It ripples out into their entire life.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely. So I think you’re starting to move the conversation into conscious parenting.
Barbara La Pointe: And something to strive for, being a conscious parent, but not always easy when your child comes up and says, “Oh, hello, Barbara,” or... right? All right. I know how fast these podcasts go.
Barbara La Pointe: So the next one is pitfall to avoid as a parent with an alienated child: don’t turn every situation into a conflict.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah. I think this ties in a lot with the previous point, considering that, like you were saying, it’s a very emotionally charged moment, especially when you see all these horror stories on the internet or just in your own research, where there are people who have not seen their kids, had any contact for years.
Andrew Folkler: In my case, I was estranged from my mother for about 13 years. There were, in about six-and-a-half year periods, I didn’t see or talk to her at all. And so there was only one instance where she drove up across the entire country just to come see me for a weekend. And when things are so high stakes and you feel like, “This may be the last time I see my kid.
Andrew Folkler: For all I know, they could go somewhere else. They could move to another state or another country,” it’s a very scary feeling. And with those scary feelings comes these overreactions because the child’s going to be defiant. They’re going to be rude.
Andrew Folkler: They’re going to be obnoxious. Part of that is them acting out the trauma that’s unresolved within them, and when we are reacting to their behavior, instead of recognizing that their behavior is a cry for help, we are amplifying that anguish and that pain that’s in them.
Andrew Folkler: Because we’re not focusing on the pain, we’re focusing on their ability to be an obedient child. And so instead of focusing on how do you put your child in a two-dimensional box so that way life is happy and cheery and rosy. Truth is, it’s never going to be like that now. What you want to do is start looking at how do you reach deep within that child and find the sources of conflict within them, and give them the stability that they need in order to feel better about themselves and about their relationship with you.
Andrew Folkler: And to put that into perspective, you want to avoid things where you’re losing your temper, for example. You don’t wanna be in a position where they can goad you into a fight, because they’re going to be engaging in behavior often similar to the alienating parent, which unfortunately brings in a whole nother slew of emotions.
Andrew Folkler: They’re going to make demands that are unreasonable, that a child would never make. You wouldn’t have a child rationally make a demand for child support, or a demand for alimony, or anything along those lines. But they’re going to be echoing these sentiments, and what you want to avoid is putting yourself in a position where you’re goaded into a fight.
Andrew Folkler: You might hear this in martial arts a lot, where they say, whenever you enter a fight, you want to be in a calm, still kind of mind. Because if your opponent goads you into anger, you forsake all technique, you forsake all sense of thought, and you start attacking aimlessly, allowing yourself to be easily overpowered by your opponent.
Andrew Folkler: And that’s exactly what’s happening here.
Barbara La Pointe: So Andrew, you had experiences, rather, in parental alienation as an ambassador. So did you run into that, where children were speaking or talking or asking about child support or alimony? Did you see that happen with other people, for example?
Andrew Folkler: I’ve seen some of it, maybe not in person, but I’ve seen it in some of the people I’ve counseled. I’ve seen it where unfortunately parents were so distraught by their child’s behavior that it steamrolled into a violent conflict. And so not only is the parent traumatized and worried that their child is turning into a violent person, they’re also afraid of taking that step again, that trying to be in a parent-child relationship.
Andrew Folkler: In my own experience, I remember being a child filled with vitriol and venom, just wanting to just lash out any time that my mother was trying to build a relationship with me. It just became second nature. I stopped thinking about why I was doing it and it was just this is what I do whenever she gets around me.
Andrew Folkler: And in many situations, my mother always maintained her calm, but she would always try and make these affirmations. “I’m always gonna be your mother, and I don’t think that you should treat your mother that way.” But in comparison to a lot of parents who start making demands and start saying, “I’m your dad, I’m your mom, you don’t treat me this way,” and they’re metaphorically beating their fist on the table saying, “This is not how you should be acting.”
Andrew Folkler: They’re allowing themself to be caught into this conflict, which in many ways is the whole purpose. In our first episode, we talked about how the child is going to associate the alienated parent or the estranged parent as a source of drama. And the irony is that they’re gonna come in, they’re gonna instigate this drama, and then blame it on you.
Andrew Folkler: And you don’t wanna get caught in that trap.
Barbara La Pointe: Let’s go back to your mom.
Barbara La Pointe: Now, you said when she was trying to reunite with you or reconnect or establish a love bond with you, at first you resisted, correct? I heard you say at first you were like, but then when she said to you, like, “I’m your mom, and I’ll always be your mom,” did that land better for you, that statement?
Andrew Folkler: At that time, what ends up happening is because that was her default affirmations, I could be as poisonous and hurtful as I could try to be, and she would make those affirmations, “I’m always gonna be your mom. I’m always gonna love you, and I understand that you’re upset.” And what would end up happening is some days I would turn it up and be even more spiteful.
Andrew Folkler: Other days, I would have been calm and just let her talk so I could wait for the conversation to end. Some days it just ended up with a hang-up, I’d just hang up the phone. The point was that she didn’t escalate it. She didn’t turn it into a fight. And because she didn’t turn it into a fight, I lived my life knowing that I wasn’t fighting with her, if that makes sense.
Andrew Folkler: Because let’s have this little hypothetical real quick. If she did escalate it into a fight, then I would have spent the rest of that time, the rest of the day, the rest of the week or what have you, thinking about, “I got in a fight with my mother again,” and it’s gonna be, “I got in a fight with my mother again.”
Andrew Folkler: Because if it’s one fight, chances are there’s gonna be more of them, and it would be this consistent pattern of fight, fight, fight, fight. And when you get into these fights, and you create this pattern of conflict, then when it comes down to the actual point of reconnection, I’m gonna look at that track history and say, “Well, I don’t know if this is a good idea.
Andrew Folkler: Every time we talk, we have a fight.”
Barbara La Pointe: I love what you’re saying ‘cause it’s just like hitting me right here and right here. Because I think that is how a young person might think about their parents. And so I really admire that when your mother had the wisdom to say like, “I’m your mother.”
Barbara La Pointe: And so that’s kind of more neutral timeless language, right? So how about this one? Let me know what you think. I’m your mom. Like, not to you. I’ll speak maybe to someone else, and just a general statement, “I’m your mother, and I’m waiting for you. I’m here when you’re ready.”
Andrew Folkler: You want to show that the door is open and that the choice is theirs to make, because we’re often living in a world where we try and decide other people’s autonomy. And in this case, unfortunately, you have your child having his autonomy slowly be manipulated and twisted into by a very hurtful person.
Andrew Folkler: And in many other cases, we feel our autonomy is attacked in various political matters. The point is that you want to respect their autonomy, and you want to give them the opportunity to make choices for themselves. I understand as a parent you want to protect your child from the pain and the suffering of bad decisions, but once in a while they’re going to make bad decisions regardless of your parenting.
Andrew Folkler: And so being there to support them, regardless of good or bad decisions, in many ways will help them come to respect you more and then take your advice to avoid any conflict or any bad decisions they may make down the road. The thing is, when there’s no rapport, the advice falls on deaf ears.
Barbara La Pointe: And this healing language that’s emerged in our conversation definitely keeps things neutral where you can build trust, rapport, and reestablish the energies of love. So I like where this is going.
Barbara La Pointe: So, yeah. I’m your parent. I’m your mom. I’m your dad. Not you, Andrew.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m here, and I’m waiting, and yeah. So neutrality. Wanna strive for neutrality, so some good points there. So okay, so here’s a loaded statement, something you want to avoid, a pitfall. Okay, I’ll just read it out. It’s really painful to read. It says, “Do not attack the other parent.”
Andrew Folkler: It’s such a hard thing to do sometimes.
Andrew Folkler: For many parents, they fell in love, fell deeply in love, and thought they found the one. They had a child with them, and then everything went wrong. And then not only did everything go wrong, they lost so much. They’ve lost money. They’ve lost their time.
Andrew Folkler: They’ve been emotionally, sometimes physically, abused. And on top of that, they go through this rigorous divorce process, and then that drains them of more money and more mental energy. Some people give up their careers to get into marriage and to build a family, and so now they’ve had that lost time as well.
Andrew Folkler: And so there’s so much anger and grief and loss in a divorce and in these broken relationships. And so of course, yeah, I get it. You want that other person to know how much you suffered. And I hate to break it to you, but they don’t care. They’re...
Barbara La Pointe: That’s true. They don’t care.
Barbara La Pointe: So we have to turn all the energies of caring back towards ourselves.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. And so...
Barbara La Pointe: I like to say that.
Andrew Folkler: Definitely. And I think this is more in your field of expertise, Barbara, but when it comes down to that and you have all that emotional tension that’s just twisting and bottled up inside, you have to find ways to grow past it, or you have to find ways to care for yourself and heal.
Andrew Folkler: What kind of healing methods would you recommend real quick?
Barbara La Pointe: Well, okay, so I guess what you’re saying is in order to heal it, we have to bring consciousness to it, our own consciousness to it, and the first step is bringing awareness to it. That’s one important step is becoming aware.
Barbara La Pointe: But since we’re talking about these emotionally charged situations, where you might not be able to just call on the energies of awareness and the energies of mindfulness because you feel like attacking the other parent, like in the heat of the moment when you’re in a fire and someone’s poured gasoline on it, I would probably recommend a little strategy that’s not my own, but it’s from the Distress Tolerance Center, and it’s called STOP.
Barbara La Pointe: So it’s just a way to self-regulate when you lose your point of balance or when in these emotionally charged situations. Do you wanna hear it?
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, definitely.
Barbara La Pointe: Definitely. STOP. STOP means stop. So take a step back, observe, and then proceed mindfully. But the S-T-O, the stop, take a step back, and then observe, that gives you time to actually reflect and proceed mindfully.
Barbara La Pointe: So just a little tool like that when you’re running into the other parent at school and you feel like driving your car into his car or something, then stop.
Barbara La Pointe: Or even with your kids when they’re triggering you.
Andrew Folkler: Definitely. And I think just to tie into our second episode, I would definitely incorporate the Biff strategy as well as far as that proceed mindfully portion of the STOP acronym.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah. Especially when you’re dealing with high conflict people, you’re going to want to think to yourself, “Will this get me what I want? Will this get me a better relationship with my child?” Then...
Barbara La Pointe: Well, that’s such a powerful question if you can become mindful enough in that moment and just get even a bit more present to say, “Will this get me what I want?”
Barbara La Pointe: And unfortunately in those moments, sometimes it’s a bit more challenging to do that, but will this serve my outcome?
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. And especially if the goal is to de-tangle yourself from that person or from that ex-partner. Sure, you had your great moments and now you’ve had your bad moments, but now is the time to start looking towards a newer future for yourself and... Do you want them in there?
Andrew Folkler: If you want them in there, then keep doing what you’re doing and keep yelling at them. But if you want them to not be a part of your life moving forward, then this is the opportunity to stop, look within, and find ways to move forward for yourself and minimize the contact that you have with them.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely. And Andrew, I think that what you’re saying is truly wise, and it’s resonating with me. And I think I wrote a little e-book called Erased By a Narcissist: One Woman’s Journey Divorcing a High-Conflict Personality. And there’s just a little part in there where I say that children may start emulating their parents’ high-conflict tendencies or their parents’ high-conflict personality.
Barbara La Pointe: So I just mentioned that ‘cause we shifted to parents, but we’re really talking about alienated kids. But it’s hard to separate it all out because it’s all part of the system.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah. And I can imagine that some listeners might say, “Well, how am I supposed to de-entangle myself from this ex when they’re constantly attacking me, and they’re constantly attacking my kids, or they’re constantly trying to initiate conflict?
Andrew Folkler: How do you do this?” And a lot of that really does boil down to the gray rock strategy, the BIF strategy that we’ve talked about in previous episodes, and the importance of not engaging in that conflict. Because the moment you do, you’re getting roped into their game.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah. Well, stepping back and having those self-regulations tools to step back or remove yourself from the game.
Barbara La Pointe: Just a little simple saying that shifted everything for me was, what you give power to has power over you. And I was giving so much of my own personal power away, and my own personal truth was just getting clobbered down that I was engaging when I didn’t wanna engage. So guilty as charged.
Barbara La Pointe: All right.
Andrew Folkler: One last little bit just for this one point, because it’s really important The goal at the end of the day is to build a relationship with the alienated child or to prevent them from going down a route of further alienation. And so with that goal in mind, remember that that parent is still 50% of them.
Andrew Folkler: That parent is part of their creation. And so when you attack that parent, you are going to be attacking 50% of them. And if that child sees you attacking them, that parent, you’re...
Barbara La Pointe: You’re seeing of that child is what you’re saying, right?
Andrew Folkler: Yeah. Yes. And so if the child sees you attacking that other parent, they’re going to see that, “Okay, well, maybe this parent’s no different than the other parent.
Andrew Folkler: Why do I want to have a relationship with the parent that I already associate as drama? Why do I wanna associate with this parent if they’re gonna just attack my guardian angel parent?” Which would probably be their alienating parent, unfortunately.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, and I agree. And but first of all, it erodes the child’s sense of self-worth, because they subconsciously, genetically, epigenetically realize that they’re part mom and part dad.
Barbara La Pointe: So then ‘cause that’s how children form their sense of self-worth, is firstly through bond with mom or bond with your parents. So yeah, on a more serious note, I saw something quite beautiful where a parent, say a dad, said to their child, like, “I love you and you’re beautiful,” or, “I can see your mother in you, and that part of you I like,” or, “I love to see your mother in you,”
Barbara La Pointe: And just to say something like that to your child, like, “I see your mother in you, and that’s okay,” might be a very healing, affirmative form of language that you can share with your child. And it might not really be easy. I didn’t know I was gonna be referencing my little e-book, but this one might be really tricky for people.
Barbara La Pointe: I like to make this light, Andrew. But if you were to take a picture of the other parent and have it in your home I don’t know how many parents could do that. That is a very healing action you could take to just balance your whole family system. What are your thoughts on that, Andrew?
Andrew Folkler: I think it’s a very difficult thing to do, and I can see why many people who might be listening will say, “Oh, hell no,” and then just saying, “Absolutely not.”
Andrew Folkler: But it takes courage to do so. It takes a lot of courage because it’d be something that you would look at, and you would have all those emotions just kind of surge up like a volcano. And you’re going to have to recognize that those emotions need to be worked through, that they need to be resolved internally in order for you to have your power.
Andrew Folkler: Like you just said, what you give power has power over you. If you give yourself that power to heal through this, nobody’s going to be able to topple you or throw you off balance.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, because no one can heal you but you. No one can tell you how to parent really honestly but you. You have to parent authentically.
Barbara La Pointe: And no one can change you but you. Those type of things. But yeah, for anyone listening, consider it. Consider putting a picture of your other co-parent in your home. I challenge you to do that. I can’t even blush without saying it. But that is one beautiful healing step that we could all make to stop alienation and bring more unity and restore the orders of love in our family.
Barbara La Pointe: Are you ready for the next pitfall?
Andrew Folkler: Let’s go for it.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay. So don’t involve your children in any of your legal discussions.
Andrew Folkler: I think this one pairs in a lot with the attacking the other parent simply because the process of divorce is already gonna be a very emotionally charged moment for the kid.
Andrew Folkler: And depending on their age category, they may want to find someone responsible. And so when you involve them in the legal discussion, you are bringing them deeper and deeper into this hell hole or hellscape of family court, and it will hurt them more in the long term. This is a dispute between yourself and your ex, not a dispute between the child and the parents.
Andrew Folkler: Rather than engaging in that, you just acknowledge this is, “Your mother and I,” or, “Your father and I don’t agree on certain things, and we’ve reached a point where we need to start taking actions to separate,” but that’s... You don’t involve them in anything deeper beyond that.
Barbara La Pointe: Right. Well, hopefully those actions are non-family court-orientated actions, because there are other ways that you can find resolution, make agreements, besides heading down to the local family court.
Barbara La Pointe: Little sidebar. All right, so do you feel complete on that one?
Andrew Folkler: It’s pretty basic. And you really don’t wanna drag the child into that world, because it makes them feel worse about the entire situation.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, everyone feels worse when there’s high-conflict legal discussions or high-conflict legal battles or high-conflict affidavits, or you get into an attack-defend cycle in family court.
Barbara La Pointe: So it’s such a shame sometimes that families spend years and years and years in family court, and then it becomes more difficult to keep this separate from your children. But this is a common no-no, and you hear it many places, don’t discuss legal stuff with your children.
Andrew Folkler: Especially if the child is being contested for custody. You can imagine just how much they would hate being the center of what’s being fought over. And then to involve them in that discussion is just twisting the knife.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah. And family court is a big knife, and it’s in my view, a very unloving system So if you can avoid it, and sometimes you can’t, any family court knives into these unloving systems is something to take into consideration because it is possible.
Barbara La Pointe: So I’m getting serious now, Andrew.
Barbara La Pointe: This is on our list here. Do not interrogate your child. So again, this is in the context, of course, of parental alienation. And.
Barbara La Pointe: So interrogate your child. I’ll let you speak to that, Andrew.
Andrew Folkler: So oftentimes you might have, like I said, when we were talking about the parts on not engaging in manipulative behavior, the interrogating your child and asking them, “So what’d you do at mom’s place?
Andrew Folkler: Did you guys do anything?” And then “Did she get you anything for your birthday?” Asking questions about their relationship that is, in effect, invasive will harm your relationship with your child. I remember this would happen a lot with my stepmother and how she would treat her extended family.
Andrew Folkler: I would go to a family Christmas party, and she would not show up because she had fallouts with certain family members. And then I’d come home and get interrogated, like, “So was this person there? Did they say anything about me? What were they doing? Did they have fun?”
Andrew Folkler: “Who’d you talk to?” And it would just be this nonstop, endless questions of, well, if you wanted to know these things, just go there. And...
Barbara La Pointe: So how did that impact you when you were the receiver of these questions? What did you do? Where, blah, blah, blah.
Andrew Folkler: The thing was I wanted to be there with family that I enjoyed being with. I wanted to enjoy the festivities. I wanted to eat good food and talk to family, like I said, that I enjoyed being with. I wasn’t there to be a spy for her. And you don’t want your child to feel like they’re this third-party spy between parents.
Andrew Folkler: And you don’t want them to be bouncing back and forth and reporting on the other activities of the parents. Unfortunately, alienating parents will do this to their child, and so it is not uncommon to have your activities being reported to the other parent. And unfortunately, this does put you under a spotlight.
Andrew Folkler: And in many ways, some regular habits, a beer in the evening can turn into an accusation of alcoholism. Or just taking a few meds for a certain health condition you might have may turn into an accusation of drug addiction. It’s unfortunate because these are gonna be perpetrated by the alienating parent.
Barbara La Pointe: I just wanna step in and support you in what you’re saying, because to some that might sound far-fetched, and to others listening, they know that that and worse may happen when you go into family court. Because that system rewards this type of false accusation-making where unfortunately, so these things do happen.
Barbara La Pointe: What you’re saying, I find to be very relevant.
Andrew Folkler: And just to really wrap up this point, it comes down to, again, the number one question of this episode is, what’s most important? And the answer is bonding with that child. Building that bond, creating those memories, something that they can hold onto when they leave your place.
Andrew Folkler: Whether they’re living with you or not living with you, you want them to have those positive emotions and things to hold onto. And so if their memories...
Barbara La Pointe: Bit, right?
Andrew Folkler: Yeah.
Barbara La Pointe: Build on the 1%.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. Or the.
Barbara La Pointe: 2%.
Andrew Folkler: And if their memories of time with you is an interrogation, they’re gonna look back when you try and make contact with them and say, “Okay, fight, fight, interrogation, fight, fight.
Andrew Folkler: I don’t know. No, thank you please. Please, no thank you.” And then they’re gonna walk away.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s a good point, Andrew. I think you’re bringing some really, really relevant points from almost the perspective of the child, which leads us to our next pitfall to avoid in these sort of breaking the bond of parental alienation statements.
Barbara La Pointe: Do not deny your child’s emotions.
Andrew Folkler: One thing you might see a lot in the parental alienation community is when a child is angry or they’re acting out their unresolved conflict within themselves or their unresolved emotions within themselves, they might echo some sentiments that would be said by your ex.
Andrew Folkler: And you do not wanna counter this with statements like, “You’re talking like your mother. You’re talking like your father.” You don’t want to say, “You’re just angry because your mother said this. You’re just upset because your father said this.” You don’t want to label their emotions as something that was imprinted on them.
Andrew Folkler: They’re going to feel that their emotions are legitimate. Whether they know that or not isn’t going to help you in this instance. And it sounds counterintuitive, but the thing is, what you need to do is go beyond the anger and go into the roots of where that anger is sourced from. And the answer is it’s not so much sourced in the programming done by the alienating parent.
Andrew Folkler: Rather, I would argue it’s the unresolved anguish they hold within themselves. If the child believes that they are at fault for the divorce, they will hold onto that, and that is what’s going to lead to these acts of estrangement. If they believe that they’re not loved enough as a result of the divorce, then that’s where you might get a different set of actions in the estrangement And so what you want to do is target those roots within them.
Andrew Folkler: It’s because, again, it’s not about the alienating parent, it’s about the child. And once you shift your focus from a point of addressing the alienating parent within the child, and you shift it to addressing the child within the child, you are then able to start a different process, a process of healing, and a process of building rapport versus fighting the alienating parent that’s programmed in their mind.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah. Well, I think you just hit it on the nail on the head there when you said shifting your focus from the alienating parent just to your own child, as long as whatever is in your control. And then applying this healing language, which is neutral, and these loving actions will take you farther faster in building trust, rapport, and reuniting that love bond with your child.
Barbara La Pointe: Absolutely. And just obviously, it’s undisputed, I think we can all agree that children need both parents and that they love and that they want the love of both parents as well.
Andrew Folkler: Unfortunately, the child’s going to be bringing in a lot of unresolved emotion. It could be the manipulations of the alienating parent.
Andrew Folkler: It could be their own feelings of the divorce. At the end of the day, your goal is to see past the emotions, see past what they throw at you, and go straight to the source of anguish within them. And once you’re able to develop a habit of doing so, you will be able to really show them that you understand them.
Andrew Folkler: There’s a saying that I remember coming across, and I can’t remember who it came from, but it was something along the lines of, “People don’t want to be understood, they want to be felt.” And it’s one thing where you can understand why the child is acting this way. You understand that they’re being manipulated.
Andrew Folkler: You understand that they’re being abused at their other parent’s house, and being interrogated, and being told all these hateful things about you. It’s great. We all understand. The thing is, it’s not about understanding right now. Right now, it’s about emotional intelligence and being able to go past what they throw at you, all the insults, all the hateful comments, all the accusations.
Andrew Folkler: Go past that, deeper within themselves. We always talk about the child within ourselves. They’re gonna have one too. To the child within the child, and giving that child the assurance that you’re there to build a relationship with them, you’re there to love them, and you’re there to guide them into their adult life.
Barbara La Pointe: Oh, that’s beautiful, Andrew. And really, how healing would it be to say that to your child, and how healing for any child in any circumstance to hear that from their mother or their father? And yeah, this is, this is good stuff, because this is really, really the worst of the worst. This is a painful journey. And that’s why also, too, how do we get to those healing sentences, those healing languages? It’s just becoming more conscious and healing. So great time for me to just put in there that why not get support to get there with a psychotherapist or a coach, someone to guide you through it?
Barbara La Pointe: Because sometimes just having a guide, whether it’s a coach or whatever modality you choose can bring you to consciousness quicker and reveal your blind spots in your own energy field. Because this is really difficult stuff to navigate alone. In fact, no one should be alone during divorce dealing with a narcissist or parental alienation.
Barbara La Pointe: It is definitely the time when you need a community and loving support team behind you.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah. So a little side note. We had talked about something pretty relevant in our social media world, which was don’t take screenshots of your conversations with your kids or your ex and post them on social media.
Barbara La Pointe: Which at first to me was like, “Well, who would do that?” But apparently it happens a lot. And then we were talking about earlier when we were doing some prep about how your child, whether it’s pre-adolescent child or teenager, can make fake profiles, and actually see what you’re writing and sharing or venting or posting on social media.
Barbara La Pointe: So just maybe a little point there.
Andrew Folkler: It’s definitely very easy, especially if the user is unaware of the social media privacy settings. It’s very easy to just have a default settings and allow the rest of the world to see what you’re putting out there. And this really ties in with that earlier point of don’t attack the other parent, because if they see that, they’re going to think that you’re guilty of all the things and accusations that are being thrown at you.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, and sometimes some of these statements and don’t post things on social media may seem like common sense, but when you’re under heavy fire and down, in some of your darkest, hardest moments, that’s when you lose sight of all of these things which now seem so logical. So having a support team, a loving support team, in addition to your hopefully loving legal team, can ease the way and show you the way forward.
Barbara La Pointe: Since we are a solution-focused podcast, and hopefully too, once the healing’s done, it allows you to be more future-orientated. Andrew, you created an incredible acronym to help you become more resourceful in what you’re facing. Okay, so the acronym is LOVE, and L for listen or even loving listening.
Barbara La Pointe: So the acronym is LOVE.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, we just want to listen. We want to give the child the chance to say what they have to say. It might not be positive things. It might be very horrible things. You still wanna give them the chance to say it. Let them get the words out, let them get the emotions out, and that way you know you have an accurate way of saying, “Okay, this is where they’re at right now.
Andrew Folkler: This is what they’re feeling right now.” Whether it’s true or not is irrelevant right now. We’re not gonna talk about whether or not mom or dad is a drug addict because they take pills for their health condition. We’re not gonna talk about whether or not mom or dad is an alcoholic or mentally unstable.
Andrew Folkler: We know those terms are not true. But right now, we need to address what they’re feeling, and we do that by just taking a step back and just listening to what they have to say.
Barbara La Pointe: And sometimes your child just might say, because of the circumstance, something as simple as, “I hate you.” And of course, “I hate you, mom,” or, “I hate you, dad.”
Barbara La Pointe: So it could just be as simple as that, too. So listen. Loving listening.
Andrew Folkler: So we take the time, we step back, we listen to them, then we start looking at opportunities to bond. That would be your letter O in this acronym. Opportunities to bond, what’s that mean? Well, once we know what’s ailing them, what’s hurting them, we can start looking at how do we build rapport with them.
Andrew Folkler: And whether it is behaviors that are upsetting them that you need to change within yourself, or if you feel that they are associating you with a false personality, or they’re associating you with these negative characteristics, and you want to demonstrate that you are not that person, these are ways to build that rapport, build opportunities to build rapport, opportunities to bond with your child.
Andrew Folkler: And and the other thing you can do is maybe it’s not hateful insults. Maybe your child is saying, “I don’t wanna hang out with you right now. I wanna play video games.” And then you can say, “Okay.” Instead of saying, “Well, what about my time? What about all this fun stuff I’ve planned for you?
Barbara La Pointe: Beautiful.
Andrew Folkler: What about this birthday party I planned for you?” Instead of jumping into that conflict, you can start saying, and you’re looking for these opportunities to bond, you start saying, “Oh, you wanna play video games for your birthday? Okay. What kind of video games are you playing?” And then you can start looking at trying to build a discussion with them.
Andrew Folkler: So that would be opportunities to bond. Yep.
Barbara La Pointe: Yep, engagement. Okay.
Andrew Folkler: The next step would be valuing their opinion, and a lot of this pairs in with the listening bit. You want to value their opinion. Their opinion could think, could be that you are the worst person in the world. Their opinion could be all these hateful accusations.
Andrew Folkler: I’m not saying that just because you’re valuing their opinion, you are saying that they’re true. That’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is that you are giving them the chance to say what they said, and address it as if it were a valid argument Now, again, you have to be concrete and rooted in yourself.
Andrew Folkler: They’re going to call you names. They’re going to say hurtful things, and you know those are not true. But you’re going to address them very calmly and address them in a way that is peaceful, neutral, and constructive. And that leads us into our last point, which is empathy, and it really wraps everything up in the sense where you know they are saying these hurtful things.
Andrew Folkler: You know that they’re really angry, that they’re unhappy, and they’re looking for reasons to get away from you. So you’ve given them the opportunity to speak their mind. You’ve maybe looked for opportunities to build rapport with them, and you’ve shown them that you value their opinion.
Andrew Folkler: The last part is to dig deep. And this really ties in with what I was saying with the listen part. Dig deep. Look at the child within the child. What are the emotions they are feeling? What are the fears they have? Where’s the pain and their anger? And start addressing those parts of them, and then you’ll start being able to build that relationship with them.
Barbara La Pointe: Beautiful. So we just touched briefly, and to bring this all together, that we also love the book Gary Chapman’s Five Love Languages. But with respect to your children.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, just a quick recap on Gary Chapman’s Five Love Languages for the people who have not read it. He basically summarizes our interactions into five love languages.
Andrew Folkler: There’s words of affirmation, acts of service, quality time, material gifts, and physical touch. With words of affirmation, these are the I love yous. These are the, “You’re doing great. You’re doing an awesome job. Thank you.” These are the thank yous. All of these things are positive ways to demonstrate that you care for someone.
Andrew Folkler: More subtly, it could be the, “Drive safe.” It could be the, “Call me when you get home.” Or the, “You’re handsome,” or, “You’re beautiful,” or, “You’re a princess.” All these things are words of affirmation proud of
Barbara La Pointe: Or just, “I’m you.” “I’m proud of you.”
Andrew Folkler: That’s probably the most important one I missed.
Andrew Folkler: Thank you, Barbara.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s okay. We all love to hear that. I’m proud of you.
Andrew Folkler: And so the next one would be acts of service. So with acts of service, these are the little things that you can do to help them get something done. Maybe if your kid is older, you help them change their oil in their car or change their tires in their car.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe you recommend them to somebody who’s an expert in some sort of field that they need help in. Or maybe you help them file their taxes. Acts of service is just a small way of building that relationship, where you can help them with a certain task maybe they know or don’t know about, and you’re just getting them along.
Andrew Folkler: And it’s very subtle, but it’s a great way to build rapport. Next one would be quality time. Quality time could be as simple as watching a movie together, just talking, having a conversation, eating ice cream together. Doesn’t really matter. It’s just a matter of being present in the moment and being there with your child and giving them your full attention Number four, material gifts.
Andrew Folkler: Material gifts doesn’t have to be something outlandishly expensive. You don’t have to buy them a new car. You don’t have to buy them the next video game console. You don’t have to go out there and spend a ridiculous amount of money. It could be something small. Maybe if, say, your kids are going for college and you’re estranged from them, you buy them a few pots and pans as a apartment warming gift.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe if you were more artsy and you wanted to paint something for them, then you could paint a painting for them.
Andrew Folkler: Or if you did want to do something financial for them, setting aside college funds would be a great way to do so as well.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s good. I guess it’s just building meaning, something meaningful in that gift.
Andrew Folkler: Meaningful.
Andrew Folkler: And some of the best gifts are the ones that didn’t cost money. Some of the best gifts are the ones that don’t cost any money. It’s the ones that you could put on your shelf or your nightstand or on the counter, and you just see it once in a while and you say, “Oh, hey, yeah, I remember that.
Andrew Folkler: It’s my mother or my dad gave me that.” Just small little reminders that you’re there and you care and your love for them. And then the last one, physical touch. In this case with the child, obviously these are your hugs, your kisses, your head pats, your fist bumps.
Andrew Folkler: They’re all just small subtle ways of providing emotional support and physical connection, showing that you’re actually there, that you’re tangible, you’re going to support them, you’re going to catch them when they fall. You’re gonna try and shield them from any harm or danger.
Barbara La Pointe: Just to recap, bringing consciousness to our field to heal, trying to integrate and send out not only healing vibes, but using that healing language, which is often very neutral, powerful healing language. But to get there and do all of that, you have to maybe open up to resourcing yourself and getting support.
Barbara La Pointe: More support. More support. You might need more support than you’ve ever needed through this. So we highlighted a couple of examples of powerful healing language, and the neat thing is that you don’t even have to say this directly to your child. You can say it to a picture. Just one sec. I think I have a picture.
Barbara La Pointe: Right. Actually, that’s me. But you could have a picture of your child if you didn’t see your child, and you could use this healing language with your child And just to give the credit to Mark Wolynn for these sentences that a parent or mother or father could say to his or her child. “I can’t show you this in real life, but I can give it to you now.”
Barbara La Pointe: Gives it thoughts if you’re separated. “I couldn’t show you love then, but I can show you love now. It’s true. With all that was going on, my attention got pulled away from you when you needed it most. You needed me, and because of all of the stress, the fighting,” fill in the blanks, “it affected you. I’m your mother,” or, “I’m your father.
Barbara La Pointe: I’m here for you now. I’m waiting for you.” Some examples of healing language that you can energetically put out there. It doesn’t have to be that you literally say this to your child. You can actually just use this, a photograph. Just have it, by, and you can actually just send that out into our galactical universe.
Andrew Folkler: Definitely. And I know some people might see that and be like, “Oh, well, I don’t wanna just talk to a photo. This won’t do anything. This won’t fix anything.” And I want to kind of warn that those people who might feel that you don’t want to take away your opportunity to work through the emotions that you are having as a result of these different situations, be it parental alienation or the high-conflict people that we’re dealing with.
Andrew Folkler: You want to give yourself the chance to work through those emotions. And so don’t knock it till you try it.
Barbara La Pointe: And it’s so great to know that you don’t need the person to work through it. If you have an issue with your parent, you don’t actually need your parent. It’s better if you can work through it with the person, but if you can’t, you can still work through it.
Andrew Folkler: Thank you, everyone, and that is all we have time for today. Thank you for taking the time to be with us. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our channel, either on YouTube or through our podcast. Don’t forget to use the downloadable document below. It’ll have all of the things that we talked about earlier, and it’ll help you and your loved ones deal with all of these challenges of alienation, trauma, and high conflict.
Andrew Folkler: Barbara, if people wanted to contact you or how would they go about reaching you?
Barbara La Pointe: Barbaralapointe.com, and e-book’s also available as a totally free download, barbaralapointe.com.
Andrew Folkler: All righty. Yeah. And if you want to contact me, you can find me at my website at andrewfolkler.com or just email me at startnow@andrewfolkler.com.
Andrew Folkler: And as always, thank you for taking the time to be with us today at the Broken Family podcast, where we discuss and help you find solutions to divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. Have a great day, everyone.