In this episode, Andrew and Barbara talk with Dr. Foojan Zeine, creator of Awareness Integration, about intimate relationships, addictive behaviors, and how to support a partner struggling with deep-rooted trauma.
Note: This podcast was originally hosted on Barbara La Pointe’s website, which has since gone offline. I’ve reposted the episodes here so people still have access to the materials.
Transcript
Andrew Folkler: Welcome everyone to another episode of Broken Families, where we host conversations on divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m Barbara La Pointe. Today we are going to discuss intimate relationships, addictive behaviors, trauma, and how we can show up for our partners if they’re struggling with deep-rooted trauma in relationships.
Barbara La Pointe: And that is why we’ve brought on a very special guest, Dr. Foojan Zeine. Dr. Foojan Zeine is the pioneer and author of Awareness Integration Psychology, an educational theory, a multimodality approach and intervention for minimizing depression and anxiety, while simultaneously improving self-confidence and self-esteem.
Barbara La Pointe: She conducts many trainings and workshops to educate mental health professionals in using her model, and she is also the author of several books, including Life Reset: The Awareness Integration Path to Create the Life You Want, and the book Awareness Integration Therapy: Clear the Past and Create a New Future and Live a Fulfilled Life Right Now.
Barbara La Pointe: So without further ado, please welcome Dr. Foojan. Welcome.
Foojan Zeine: Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be with Andrew, you, Barbara, and everyone who’s listening.
Barbara La Pointe: Beautiful. Well, I felt really good when I said the words clear the past and create a new future. So if that’s possible with integration awareness therapy, we’d love to hear more about this therapy.
Foojan Zeine: Absolutely. It’s an approach that I have worked on for... I’ve been a therapist for about 30 years, and I’ve, side by side, have worked with a lot of self-growth educational seminars and trainings. So one of the things that happens is that I found we’re really not aware of the internal process that’s going on for us.
Foojan Zeine: We’re usually live in either our past or live outside of ourselves, like all the assumptions that we have about people or things that are out there, and we rarely learn to really look at ourselves. I have people who come in around age 20 to 30, where either they’re lost and they don’t know where to go in their life, or they’ve had a mishap.
Foojan Zeine: They had this idea about where they wanted to be, and then suddenly they get there, and I’m like, “No, this is not where I wanted to be.” They got married, and they had all of these ideas about marriage, and they’re like, “Oh, no, this isn’t the one I thought.” Or they, “I wanna be this person when I grow up in my career,” and they gain the career, and they’re like, “I don’t know.
Foojan Zeine: This isn’t the one.” So I thought maybe we could start with awareness, and then the process is looking at your thought process, emotional process, body, behavior, and more than anything, the impact that we have in the way that we think and feel and behave consistently in our life in different areas of our life.
Foojan Zeine: And then there’s a three relational aspect that I look at. First of all, we all live in relationships in every aspect of life. If I took one of you and put you in a solid room with nobody else there, after a while you’ll obviously not only talk to yourself, so you split yourself and you relate to yourself, but then you’ll find something around, a ball or something, and then you start talking to it and relating to it.
Foojan Zeine: Because that’s what we do. We’re related species. We have to be relating to everybody. So then we... If you look at there’s a me that has a thought and an emotion, and I behave toward the world, and obviously I have some sorts of an impact. And then we also live in our assumptions, right? So I’m gonna assume if Barbara likes me, I will respond a particular way to Barbara.
Foojan Zeine: But if I come in and think, “Barbara doesn’t like me,” I’m gonna have a totally different response to her, right? So this is the way that we consistently live in assumptions and behave toward assumptions. We have feelings about our assumptions. And so half of the times we don’t even check our assumptions, but we live in this kind of world as if it’s the truth.
Foojan Zeine: And then the third way of relating is that I have a relationship with myself, right? So we all talk to ourself in our brain. And then we have a view of ourself. So when we talk about self-esteem and self-confidence, it’s not like other people thinking of us. We have a thought process about ourself.
Foojan Zeine: I have an opinion about myself. I’m great, or I’m a failure, or I’m no good, or... So this is the way that I relate to myself or I feel about myself. I might be embarrassed about myself, or have shame, or sad, or any of those feelings. And then there’s something we do to ourself, right? We punish ourself, we scold ourself.
Foojan Zeine: Or we nurture ourself, right? These are the kind of relatedness that is happening all the time. So the same way your lungs are working, at the same time your heart is working, all of them are working simultaneously to take your beautiful body around. From a psyche perspective, you also have all of these things that are happening simultaneously.
Foojan Zeine: Your thought process, your feeling, your behavior and the impact, and you relate to people in these three ways. So when you create a camera to put on your head which looks at you and then it looks outside, and then you’ll see that the feeling and thought process are happening inside, the behavior is happening from you to outside, and then it has an impact outside.
Foojan Zeine: So when you become aware of this, then you become a co-creator of the way you relate, for example, in your intimate relationship, in your marriage, with your children. Even if something is upsetting, then you feel like, “I can shift something,” versus becoming a victim in a sense of the world that is happening.
Foojan Zeine: But some of the past keeps coming. Even if you have a good intention now, you have a goal, you want exactly have a perfect relationship, you learn the skills, you wanna do those stuff, then sometimes your past keeps coming in, past that you haven’t resolved. Maybe you had a trauma as a child.
Foojan Zeine: Maybe you had a really bad first relationship, that it was traumatic, that it was abusive. So if that hasn’t been healed, then obviously we create these type of coping mechanisms or the protective ways of handling ourself. We wanna go into a shell and protect ourself. So then that type of a behavior keeps coming into the present moment, so you end up creating similar experiences than before.
Foojan Zeine: Although you might have more skills, you’ve grown up, we should have learned from the past experience, but somehow the past keeps creeping in. So there’s a process of integrating with your past, coming and hearing and the memories and the things you told yourself when things happened, the perception that you had when it happened, and then integrating it within your system and reminding that I’m here, I’ve survived it, look at all of me with all the skills I’ve got, and how to protect myself internally and to have an intention of how do I wanna have this relationship to go forward?
Foojan Zeine: So that’s how you first create an awareness of every moment for yourself in that you realize what are the stuff that are keep coming back and creeping in from the past, and then you clean those up, and then you create intentions for the future and find the goals and action plans and skills in order to create what you want.
Foojan Zeine: And then we’ll go through every area of life, because every area of life is important, and it’s linked. If you’re upset and don’t have an appropriate intimate relationship, it’s gonna make you go down emotionally, and it’s gonna affect your work. If your work and finances are not working well, it’s gonna affect your intimate relationships.
Foojan Zeine: It’s gonna affect your body. So it’s like allowing yourself to look at each area of your life, clean it up, be aware of it, create goals around it, and then move forward from a conscious place.
Barbara La Pointe: Beautiful. Sounds so inviting to have an integration rather than all these fractured parts of self, right?
Foojan Zeine: Absolutely.
Barbara La Pointe: I’d love to hear what you have to say about that.
Foojan Zeine: Well, the fractured part becomes, for example, imagine that I’m two year old and my mother is doing something busy and can’t really take care of me at that moment, and I’m suffering, and in that moment I make it mean my mom is not taking care of me, and it must be me.
Foojan Zeine: We all take it very personal, even from childhood. Everything is about me, and it’s personal to me. So it’s like, I must be unlovable because I’m calling her, she’s not coming, so I’m suffering, then maybe I’m not lovable. Maybe the world isn’t safe. So we make up these type of generalized belief systems about ourself and the world.
Foojan Zeine: And then we create this fabric and the storyline about who we are and who the world is. And then we keep adding to it. So imagine if at two year old I decided that I’m not lovable, I’m not good, I’m not enough, based on whatever happened. Then I go to school, and among my peers, doesn’t wanna give me their toys, and I’m fighting with them and they say, “I don’t wanna be your friend,” then I’m not good enough.
Foojan Zeine: I’m no good. Nobody wants to be my friend. Then I become a teenager, I have a crush on somebody, and it’s my first crush. They’re not into me. They say something and then next week they’re onto somebody else. I carry this. I’m not good enough. Nobody likes me.
Foojan Zeine: I’m no good. So then you go to work. Everybody had a jerk boss at one point, which they were nasty at one point, and then see, I’m not even good enough here. So this thing carries in different areas of life, and each one of those, when you don’t have the skills to handle, to recognize your emotions, to release it and move forward, that’s where the fractures begin.
Foojan Zeine: Each space holds in their own space of the fracture and in different areas of life. So we might learn something in one area, but it doesn’t bridge. I’ve had so many high-functioning CEOs of companies who all they do all day is beautiful communication, and then they come home and open the door, and with their wife or husbands, suddenly the communication becomes like a 12-year-old.
Foojan Zeine: Everything they knew in how to communicate in the corporate world did not transfer in when they’re talking, for example, to their mate. Because intimate relationship was something they learned from their parents. Corporate world, they learned as an adult, and it had all of these signs of how you need to work professionally or communicate professionally.
Foojan Zeine: So they learn this beautiful communication and negotiation skills, but that doesn’t transfer to their home environment and marriage because they learned marriage from their parents’ relationship. So if their parents never knew how to negotiate and it was high conflict, they just automatic bring that in.
Foojan Zeine: So that’s why it’s so important to look at each one of the areas. And if we have skills that are built in other areas, then bring them and also integrate them in all the other areas. So this way we’re integrating ourself, not only all the little kids, inner children that we’ve created and stay, which they are stuck somewhere and their issues have not been resolved, and then also integrate all the skills we’ve got from all these different ideas and places, and bring them and integrate them in all of the areas of life.
Andrew Folkler: It’s incredible.
Andrew Folkler: So how would somebody going through that kind of struggle begin that process of integrating their other skills and bringing them together to solve a relationship problem or even just a relationship with themself problem?
Foojan Zeine: Sure. In the book Life Reset, this is written as a self-help book model which takes you through the exercise, and it takes you systematically to 12 questions, right?
Foojan Zeine: Which were, as I said it at the beginning, how do I think? How do I feel? How do I behave? And what’s the impact that I have with the outside world? So with people that I know, with acquaintances, with coworkers, bosses, around money, around my siblings, children, past relationships, current intimate relationship, my mother, my father, myself, my body, my diseases, my addictions, nature, universe, God, death, all the stuff that we deal with overall.
Foojan Zeine: So imagine 20 areas or based on your life, well, how many other areas of life that you wanna consider. Then we go through this process, which is the questions of how do I think, feel, and behave, and impact? How do I assume that others think of me, feel about me, and behave towards me, and the impact, and then how do I think of myself?
Foojan Zeine: If I’m beside Andrew, how do I think of myself? Do I feel inferior? Do I feel superior? Do I feel that I’m less than? Do I feel proud? What is it that I feel about myself as I am with other people in and around the world? Sometimes I’ve looked at, okay, when I’m beside my boss, these are the feeling and thought process that I have, but for myself.
Foojan Zeine: When I’m beside somebody that is my subordinate, I have these other thinking and feeling about myself. When the minute I go beside my mother, I become the little girl. It doesn’t matter if I’m 50. I become the little girl, and I’m powerless. So you can see, we take ourself everywhere, but we also have an opinion about ourself when we are around people.
Foojan Zeine: So then you go through that, and then we find the core belief, something that is negative about ourself that we’ve really hang in there, and we made ourself believe that. Then there’s a process that takes you, like a self-hypnosis almost. It takes you to your past, to the memory. It’s the first time you’ve actually experienced this, and you bring who you are today to that part of you, embrace it, and tell it. Trust me, we’ve survived that.
Foojan Zeine: You’re not there stuck anymore. You think you’re two year old. Believe me, I’m coming from your future. You’re already 60. It’s okay. It all worked out. So it’s almost like that connection of bringing that child who froze in time to the person who didn’t freeze in time, and chronologically not only got grown, but they have skills.
Foojan Zeine: And then you set the intention, who I am. Who am I? Who do I intend to be? And then from there you move to say, okay, what kind of a relationship and what kind of a goals do I want in this particular area of life? So if I’ve been defensive with my boss, let’s say, how’s that gonna impact our relationship, and who do I intend to be?
Foojan Zeine: Who do I need to be in order to have a good relationship with my boss, with that character? Or I want a good marriage and somehow it’s not working out, so what is it that I’m doing? What am I thinking, feeling, and what is going on within me that is creating this?
Foojan Zeine: And who do I intend to be? And what kind of thought process do I need to have in order to have a great relationship? What kind of emotions do I need to have in order to have a great relationship? And what kind of behaviors do I need to have? What kind of actions do I need to do in order to have the good behavior and good relationship?
Foojan Zeine: And then commit to it and move forward.
Foojan Zeine: I noticed before throughout the years, that when we just go to learning the skills and moving forward, or set up the goal and move forward, if we are not aware of all these areas and we’re not really clear of the past, that with all best intentions that you set up and you move forward, one of these parts shows up and sabotages it.
Barbara La Pointe: Those saboteurs come out to play. One of the things that is really coming up for me is that it’s a lot about awareness, but some of us have been living with these thoughts for so many years, or such a long time, the stories, the fixed beliefs, the thoughts, and it seems so daunting to just dive into the work of building awareness, and then integration to improve these relationships in every area of our life.
Foojan Zeine: Absolutely. It could be very daunting. The good news is that I ask for the awareness on both positive and negative. So that simultaneously, you’re also looking at your greatness. You’re also looking at all the things that you’ve done, and you have, and you’ve accumulated, and the friends, and beautiful human being you have.
Foojan Zeine: So it not only looks at some of the things that are not working, but it’s also looking at that. So you create this type of balance that you’re looking at, “Who am I in the greatness that I am, in the way that I’ve impacted the world in such a great way? And on the side, I’ve done these things that has impacted the world around me in a negative way.”
Foojan Zeine: And then the other part of it is that there’s no blame into this. It’s more like, just watch. Watch what it is. Do you like it? Hold it. Take it. You don’t like it? Let’s look at which part do we need to shift in order for you to create what you actually like to create. It’s almost like we say, “You don’t need to blame yourself, but you can take responsibility and accountability for, ‘I make up all the stories.’.
Foojan Zeine: So instead of constantly make up horror stories about myself and the world, can I make up positive stories about myself and the world?”
Foojan Zeine: So it’s that piece of balancing yourself. So all the questions as they go in, it says, “What are you think about?” And then it says, “Positive and negative.”
Foojan Zeine: So it forces you, “Okay, I’ve got to also look at positive.” And all of those positive ones also become your strength, the strength that you already have but you’re not looking, ‘cause you’re constantly looking at, “Maybe I’m not good enough. Look, I was supposed to get this, and I didn’t,” and all the things that are there that you don’t have gratitude about.
Foojan Zeine: When you’re home, right? All is working. The electricity’s working. The pipes are working. The water is working, all of that, and then suddenly, the dishwasher isn’t working. “Oh my God, the dishwasher isn’t working.” It’s like, okay, dishwasher is not working. What do you need to do? Da, da, da, da.
Foojan Zeine: But also look at the lights are still working, the water is working, I still got a roof, I got air conditioning working. All the other elements, I’m so grateful. And yes, this is not working, let’s go look at it. Versus completely taking all the other ones aside and zoom in only to the one thing that is not working, and make that the biggest deal and overwhelm yourself.
Foojan Zeine: Right? Does that make sense?
Barbara La Pointe: So much sense. So inviting, gorgeous, and valuable.
Foojan Zeine: And you see that a lot, ‘cause we’ve also talked about families. You see that a lot. People come to me and they’re like, “I’m ready to get a divorce.” I’m like, “Okay, well, let’s look at all the reasons that this is not working.”
Foojan Zeine: And then I say, “What’s working?” And they’re like, “Well, I don’t know.” And then we go, “All right, well then start in the area of, for example, finances. He’s been supporting me for 30 years.” All good. In the area of home and the security of home and all of that. Yeah, we have this beautiful home, it’s great.
Foojan Zeine: And then we go into the next area of family and social setting. It’s all beautiful. They love me, da, da, da, da. So you see all of these things, but they’re talked about as if, “But that’s not important. None of that is important. Only one thing that I’m not happy about is the only thing that is important.”
Foojan Zeine: And it’s like, well, can we balance this? Yes, this is important, but can you also put importance on that? Because if I take any of them away, then your attention will come in and say, “Oh, I don’t have that.” But just because it’s here, it’s as if it’s being taken for granted.
Foojan Zeine: So can we not take anything in life for granted?
Foojan Zeine: That’s the space of going and looking at the balance through that awareness and creating empathy for yourself and everyone else around you.
Barbara La Pointe: I’m also sensing a lot of non-judgmental energy when you’re looking at negative thoughts, ‘cause we have so many thoughts that stream through our consciousness in one day.
Barbara La Pointe: But just the power of just looking at them and not judging them when we wanna punish ourselves or we think, “Oh, he doesn’t like me.” And I’m just sensing that with you, just non-judgment. So you’re gonna get divorced. Okay, let’s look at that, and taking away so much of the this is bad or this is good.
Foojan Zeine: Yes, we’ve had a conversation with some of my clients who are very depressed, very depressed, and we talk. And as we go through, the aspects of awareness and going through all of it, and then there’s a place that’s almost like they’ve gotten used to the depression and the thought process and all of it.
Foojan Zeine: And at one point I’m like, “Well, if it’s working for you, then enjoy it.” It’s almost like you don’t have to make anything wrong. So the part that you’re destroying yourself is the part that you gotta see. Does this work for you? Does it work for you to destroy other relationships? Does it work for you to lie to other people?
Foojan Zeine: Does it work for you to be nasty to yourself or other people? Is this workable? And when you see a lot of people in the world that are being harsh, it’s because it’s working for them. I worked in the field of domestic violence for 15, 16 years. I created a shelter and a transitional housing for a program in northern California and one in southern California.
Foojan Zeine: And most of the perpetrators, people who are actually doing the abusing, doing the violence, or they’re upset and they can’t really handle the anger, most of it is it works for them. That’s why they’re continuing it. And the minute that we work, where I work with them to look at every they’re assuming it works for them, because it’s only assuming at that moment that they’re holding power, so they’re shutting down the conversation so they can get whatever they want, and they can feel power. It’s only working for them in that area. But they don’t get it that the fear they’re creating or their child hating them, it’s not working for them.
Foojan Zeine: Knowing that, you don’t have that type of an intimacy, that you always have to be afraid that they’re gonna leave you one day, that what they’re here for is for fear. It’s not their love towards you, that it’s not working for you. So when they get that this thing is not working for them in the bigger picture, then they’re willing to shift that behavior.
Foojan Zeine: Or for the wife or husband who’s taking the abuse, is when they set it up, in a way that, “No, you’re no longer able to do this, and I’m not going to back down, and I’m going to call the authorities,” and all of that, then they get it that it doesn’t work for them. So it’s more like even when you’re looking at the behaviors, it’s not like there’s judgment about good or bad.
Foojan Zeine: It’s does it work for you, or it doesn’t work for you.
Foojan Zeine: And then I extend that to what you said, Barbara, about thought process. I ask even for myself. Sometimes you go into this habit, I don’t know if you’ve ever had that. You wake up and you’re doing this, and then suddenly find yourself fighting with somebody.
Foojan Zeine: An unfinished business that was a dialogue that you didn’t get to say what you wanted to say at that moment. You wanna continue that conversation. And I’m like, “Okay, Foojan, is this useful at this point?” What is the point of regurgitation of these thought process, and you constantly are doing this.
Foojan Zeine: I got it. You didn’t have a chance, you felt powerless, you felt inferior, and yes, this is what happened to you at that moment. But what’s the point of regurgitating this and upsetting yourself right now? Is there anything you need to do about this? Do I need to make another phone call to that person and share?
Foojan Zeine: “I didn’t get to say this and I wanted to say this.” Okay, then go ahead and do it, and be done with it. It’s like if there’s any action you need to do about this, get on the phone, go over there, complete your action, and be done with it. But if you’re just gonna passively sit down and complain in your head, what is the use of this?
Foojan Zeine: How is this useful? And sometimes when in that awareness, like the same awareness that, oh, I’m thinking this way. Oh, this type of thinking creates this type of feeling. Oh, I just agitated myself for no good reason. Right? And you’re like, what was the purpose of this? So that’s where the awareness is so important because at that moment you can intervene with yourself and say, “Was this useful?
Foojan Zeine: No. Is there anything I can do about it? No.” Can you drop it and think about something joyful? Think about your friend that you really enjoy. Think about your mate, or think about, I don’t know, the last trip of Hawaii or the trip you’re gonna go and enjoy yourself. Create a great movie for yourself instead of this horror movie that you keep creating in your head.
Barbara La Pointe: I just love what you’re saying. There’s so many gifts when we choose to create more awareness and build up our consciousness so that we can interrupt those thought patterns, and sometimes we need support doing that, so that’s amazing. But if a person has undergone a great deal of trauma, they might find it hard to do some of those things, to approach awareness.
Barbara La Pointe: They might approach awareness, for example, in a different way or not be able to arrive at deep intimacy, or it just might be a little bit different working with someone who has early trauma. Do you see that in your practice?
Foojan Zeine: Absolutely. When you’ve had trauma what happens is that at that moment you froze.
Foojan Zeine: When we face a threat, danger, we could flight, run, fight, or freeze. Most of the people who they didn’t have an opportunity to fight Or leave and froze in that moment, and it became a state of utter powerlessness.
Foojan Zeine: And it freezes. And that frozen concept, it holds its own attitude.
Foojan Zeine: It holds its thought process, it has the emotion, and it freezes also in your body. Your muscles have a memory. Your cellular level holds that memory.
Foojan Zeine: So that’s where the trauma gets... And automatically, when you’re going through this, any notion could trigger, and you go back right into the trauma, as if you regress right into the trauma.
Foojan Zeine: You go into that space. So absolutely what you said is important for the person to notice that they have a trauma that they need to heal and release. Sometimes in the process of the integration that I’ve put in the book, they can go through it themselves. Sometimes they need a helping hand.
Foojan Zeine: They need a healing mirror, someone who they could go through this in a space of love and acceptance with another human being, because it’s just too traumatic to go back into that space on their own. And that’s why I’ve trained therapists and coaches in this methodology. So when people really need to go through this with another human being, to go into deeper layers, which they can’t just do to yourself.
Foojan Zeine: I’ll forget what my face looks like if I don’t look in a mirror. Even if I have a mirror in front of me, I don’t know what the back of my hair looks like if I don’t have a mirror. And sometimes there’s a path that we could create self-awareness for ourselves, but as much as I go like this, it’s a different feel than when I look into the mirror.
Foojan Zeine: So a therapist, a coach, all of that, they are the mirror because they see the part of the back of your head that you don’t see yourself. So they can be useful in clearing those traumas for you if you weren’t able to do it yourself with the process, and it just took you into those places, and you felt stuck in them.
Foojan Zeine: But you’re absolutely right that people who do have experiences of trauma, first they need to be able to heal those trauma. But the awareness is important. You know how many people I’ve had in my office where they are in a relationship, and they go through a lot, and they find all of these defense mechanisms.
Foojan Zeine: And then as we’re growing and looking at it, they come up with these memories that there’s really not in their conscious mind of a lot of the traumas that had happened maybe in their childhood, maybe between them and their mother or father, their early childhood or even teenagehood as they were going through it.
Foojan Zeine: But they survived it, dismissed it as if nothing happened, but it did happen. Some things happened in them which closed them. And they made a decision that I have to close. So for example, as we go through this process, the person says, “I’m here because I don’t have a good relationship with my husband or my wife, and I constantly create this.
Foojan Zeine: I keep going into relationships and all of that.” So then I say, “What are your thoughts about relationships?” “Well, relationships should be this way and should be that way, and should, should, should.” “What are your thoughts about,” for example, if we’re talking to this woman, “what are you about men?”
Foojan Zeine: “All men are jerks.” And then you go through, “Yeah, because I was abused, and my father this and that.” But then look, the intentionality is I want a beautiful relationship, and it should be this. Now look at the dichotomy. Now, if our belief system is all men are a jerk, wouldn’t it be hard for me to have a beautiful relationship with someone who I already assigned that, “That’s it.
Foojan Zeine: You’re a jerk”? So it’s like first looking at all these belief system that we created that is holding us back to actually getting what we want, because you cannot have these two side by side. It’s hard if you labeled someone a jerk, it’s very hard for you to attempt to be intimate with them.
Foojan Zeine: First you gotta be aware of all of these parts of you that instead of making you a whole, they’re constantly tugging at each other, and they’re in conflict with each other. Does that make sense?
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely.
Andrew Folkler: One dynamic that comes to mind now is when you have two people who are going to have these different dichotomies within themselves, and now they’re coming together and those dichotomies are clashing together in a three-dimensional, four-dimensional kind of way.
Andrew Folkler: And I think that that’s where you get so much variability as far as the friction or the push and pull between multiple people.
Foojan Zeine: Absolutely. I always tell my couples, I said, “Every one of us have a jerk side and an angelic side, and each one of these has a door.
Foojan Zeine: You can do something that immediately triggers my jerkish side,” which I call that more as a defensive methodology, I’m gonna defend myself in these ways. And then you can also have a key into my angelic side, which is forgiving, loving and all of that. And if I feel safe, it triggers it here and I feel safe, then I’ll bring this side of me out.
Foojan Zeine: And if I feel danger, then I’ll bring this side of me out. And this happens for everyone. We all have those skills. And then what you were saying is that my jerky side can trigger your jerky side. And the two then come up and they start, fight and defend and fight and defend and start boxing together.
Foojan Zeine: And it’s like, okay, how do we need to calm this down so then the both of the angelic side and the love and the compassion and all of that come in and be together. And that’s the key to find in those relationships. For me to know what works for you and what makes you feel safe so all of your beautiful sides show up, which is who you are.
Foojan Zeine: And then with one dirty look, with one eyebrow going up, looking at me up to down, I can trigger the other side of you that feels like now it needs to protect itself, and it comes out with a vengeance. And those are the parts that you said, how it comes in and clashes.
Foojan Zeine: And if I can become aware of not only mine, but if I am with someone who is gonna be in my life for a long time, a family member, a mate, people I work with, all of that, is to get to know how to make them feel safe so that I can be with them and make sure they know that I’m here for them, and they don’t have to put up those guards with me.
Foojan Zeine: And usually we’ll have a much more empathic and negotiative and cooperative relationship, and feel connected with each other when the guards are down.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. That actually reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite books, The Art of Peace, where they say, “When your opponent strikes with fire, counter with water,” because water by its very nature does not hit back.
Andrew Folkler: It absorbs the impact and returns back, and it would in effect neutralize that fire so that way that there is no pain. There’s no burning that’s happening. There’s no loss or aggression because the aggression has been, you could say, what’s the word? Extinguished.
Barbara La Pointe: Foojan, you bring so much rich experience and expertise to the table. I might personally set an intention to make my partner feel safe because I’m invested in that relationship. But if we could have a quick chat about co-parenting where that partner is maybe always triggering you or wouldn’t really value making you feel safe, and there’s conflict that’s happening in divorce co-parenting and parental alienation.
Barbara La Pointe: What are some strategies in scenarios such as those that you might offer up?
Foojan Zeine: Of course. So one of the things I usually say is, if you decided to have a child with someone, they just became your relative. They became family member for the rest of your life, whether you like it or not.
Foojan Zeine: When you get a divorce, all you do is you fire them from this role, but not the family role. They will always be your family. So if you could look at them from a perspective of a family, that’s one. Two, imagine that your child has a relationship with this person that you chose to have a child with. So first of all, own it.
Foojan Zeine: You’re the one who chose this person to marry. You’re the one who chose to have a marriage, to have a child with this person. And you’re the one who chose to bring a family member for the rest of your life in your life, because you chose to have a kid with them. Now, this child also has a bond with their parents, the other parent, and that you need to honor.
Foojan Zeine: That you need to honor. So if you claim that I’m doing this for my child, if you claim you’re doing this for your child, you’ve got to see what works for your child. It works for your child to have a relationship with both parents It works for your child to have quality time with both parents.
Foojan Zeine: So now it’s more like bringing the negotiation skills from that context. So first, you create the context. This is, if I have a context of this is my family member, and it is better for my child to have amazing relationship with this family member. So you have that context already. That context is different than where, “This is my ex, and he or she’s a jerk, and I don’t even want why did I have the child?” So when you’re living in that world, you’re already living with a fight. You’re walking in already doing the fight versus... And I’m like, “Put the gloves down. Put the sword down. And you’ve already chose to get a divorce. That’s okay. Now put the sword down. Now let’s go from another context to deal with this person.”
Foojan Zeine: Because if you don’t create peace, then you’re extending the fight of the divorce for another 30 years. The divorce fight only needs to be around for six months. Then drop the fight. You don’t need to fight. From here on, let’s go in the context of cooperativeness. So when you have said that, then you come back, and to me, I guide people to go into minimum efficient communication that is useful and is intended to get what your need is.
Foojan Zeine: So for example, if I’m asking my ex to come, “Can you please come and take the child at 4:00?” And when he comes to your home, their homework still needs to be done It’s a very, very direct conversation, and it can be done as if you’re courteous and requesting from anybody.
Foojan Zeine: I just wanted to share with you that the child will be ready at this time and these things are left and he needs to do it. So if I can support you in any way, let me know. I just wanted to share with you. I’m sure you will be amazing in the time that you’re gonna do.
Foojan Zeine: Now, listen to this request instead of my son’s gonna be ready at 4:00. Always you’re late anyway, so can you be there early this time? And by the way, you’re gonna let him play a lot of games and he’s gonna come back and get an F, and it’s gonna be on you. Now, imagine these conversations that happen.
Foojan Zeine: Right? So the first one is more like, I wanna cooperate with you. We’re in this together. Although we’re no longer a mate, but we’re gonna be family for the rest of our life because of this child, and both of our intention is the betterment of the child. So from that perspective, I’m gonna communicate as an ally.
Foojan Zeine: Or the other one is, you’re my enemy. I’m gonna consistently remind you how bad you are, and I’m gonna tell you what to do. Well, what do you think the result of those two would be?
Barbara La Pointe: And I love the way you just modeled that for us, modeled that how we can communicate. It was really riveting. And where might be our point of power in those two conversations?
Foojan Zeine: Well, the power is that you are giving the power of love and cooperation, and the efficiency of the message and the way that you wanna assure that that gets created. People tend to do things more if they like you. If they like you, they’ll make an effort for you But if you bring your ugly side and they don’t like you, they will resist you.
Foojan Zeine: Even if they wanted to do something for you, in order to prove to you that you’re no longer my boss, if you thought my boss, you’re not gonna be doing that. You don’t own me anymore. Even if I wanted to do that, just because you said it that way, I’m gonna rebel against you so you know you have no power over me.
Foojan Zeine: So it’s like for the efficiency of this child, not only going to the same time, and then getting their homework done, and having a good, intimate relationship and all of that, it’s how do you create that? My kindness. So it’s okay if I’m hurt at that moment. My hurt with my husband is a separate conversation that I need to handle with him, but that hurt doesn’t need to show up when I’m looking at him as a family member who both of us are supposed to take care of this beautiful child together.
Foojan Zeine: So if it’s separating my hurt in this area versus my parenthood, I’m hurt as a mate. Can I separate that from my role as a parent? And handle the mate-hood. And maybe you’ve done it. You’ve already got a divorce. Good for you. You’ve handled that piece. Right? And if there’s anything left in the divorce process that needs to be done, or is in the past, then we need to clean it.
Foojan Zeine: We need to let it go. ‘Cause sometimes it’s like, I was hurt, I wasn’t dealt with fairly in the marriage, and I’m gonna hold onto that hurt. I’m gonna hold onto that anger. And then I come back with my favorite sentence: What’s the use of that?
Barbara La Pointe: Sounds so much more energizing and inviting to release the resistance to that second conversation you were modeling for us.
Foojan Zeine: So if anybody, and I’m one of them. I used to be one of these people, that I used to hold anger and resentment and sadness, and it just became a habit. 20 years ago, I used to drive, and then this beautiful, curvy mountain, and you had the ocean view and all of that, and then I’d find myself, my hands are going this way, and my eyes are going like this, and my eyebrows are really tight, and my jaw is tight, and all my thought is I’m fighting with somebody in my head.
Foojan Zeine: I’m like, really? Look at this beautiful scenery. I’m driving. Look how lucky I am. So I found out that I got used to... It’s almost like I say we get addicted to a certain chemical that we produce from inside. People don’t just get addicted to chemicals from outside, like marijuana or Xanax and this and that.
Foojan Zeine: We also get addicted to our own chemicals. As a default position, if you’re always being anxious, you got addicted to anxiety. Even if nothing’s going on, you’re like “Let me find something that I can be afraid of.” Or you get addicted to this type of chemicals that show up with anger or sadness.
Foojan Zeine: And all is well, and then suddenly the emotion comes up, and then you gotta get angry at something. You gotta find something to be sad about. Because there’s also this, you’re used to it. You know how if you’re hungry, if you eat every day at 8:00 AM, the next day at 8:00 AM your body will tell you, “Where’s my food?”
Barbara La Pointe: Feed me. Feed me some God energy.
Foojan Zeine: It’s a habitual sequence that the memory holds. So then that’s why when I say, “What’s the use of this?” is because I want you to be aware. Is there anything at this point really to be angry about or upset? And if you say yes, I’m like, “Then handle it.” If there’s anything you need to do, handle it.
Foojan Zeine: If it isn’t, release it. But holding that emotion doesn’t do anything for you Either handle it or release it.
Andrew Folkler: I think that’s a really powerful statement. But we are closing up to that hour mark, and I wanted to quickly ask you, before we wrap up, if there was any final pearls of wisdom or anything else that you feel that was left unsaid before we wrap up for today?
Foojan Zeine: Sure. I believe that we deserve to have a fulfilling life. I went back and for a minute, I was reading actually about Albert Ellis, who was the founder of the rational emotive behavioral, and I was looking at some of his work, and he said it is beautiful for us to be able to gain this kind of a movement or a striving toward unconditional self-acceptance, unconditional other acceptance, and unconditional life acceptance.
Foojan Zeine: And then I was looking at that and I’m like, oh my God, that’s so beautiful to get, and then it dawned on me. The minute we’re born, we already have unconditional self-acceptance, unconditional other acceptance, and unconditional life acceptance.
Barbara La Pointe: True. That’s who we are.
Foojan Zeine: We’re born that way. It’s almost like this beautiful diamond that it just keeps putting mud around it, and then it stops shining, and then just clean up the mud and let yourself shine. And then carve it in a way, in the carving are the skills that we learn. Carve it in a way that just the brilliant shine shows up, and we deserve that.
Foojan Zeine: Our essence is that. So that’s would be something that I would say. We all deserve to have a fulfilled life. It’s just a matter of learning how to clean up constantly. So the more you learn how to clean up, then you allow your shine to be there.
Andrew Folkler: I think that’s a really beautiful thing to close on.
Andrew Folkler: Foojan, if listeners wanted to reach out to you, learn more about you, or even get out there and read one of your books, what would be the best way for them to do so?
Foojan Zeine: Sure. foojan.com, F-O-O-J-A-N.com. And so the book Life Reset is there for Amazon, and people can get that if they like to work on their own.
Foojan Zeine: And we did a lot of research on this, and we actually did a research on with just self-help in Cal State Long Beach with four classes. The population that, as you know, the youth had the highest level of depression and anxiety and low self-esteem. And with no therapy, with no coaching, just going through the modules and doing journaling the same they would do with Life Reset, we had 68% minimization in depression and 43% minimization in anxiety, and they raised self-esteem and self-confidence.
Foojan Zeine: We could see those are astonishing numbers that just by going through this with different areas. And then the other book you also mentioned, the Awareness Integration Therapy, this is for coaches and therapists and educators, that if they wanted to learn how to do this so they can do that with others and clients.
Foojan Zeine: And they can get both of them from foojan.com.
Andrew Folkler: All right. All righty. And that is all we’ve got time for today. Once again, everyone, thank you for taking the time to be with us. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our channel either on YouTube or to our podcast through the various podcasting platforms.
Andrew Folkler: On to you, Barbara.
Barbara La Pointe: Invite to check out my e-book, Erased By A Narcissist: One Woman’s Journey Through A High-Conflict Divorce, and this is also on my website at barbaralapointe.com. If you have any questions regarding my practice or if you’re going through a divorce, feel free to reach out to me anytime at barbara@barbaralapointe.com.
Andrew Folkler: Right on. And you can reach me at startnow@andrewfolkler.com. As always, everyone, thank you for taking the time to be with us today at the Broken Families podcast, where we discuss and help you find solutions to divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. Have a wonderful day, everyone.