In this episode, Andrew and Barbara talk with Kira Dorrian and Deana Thayer, founders of Future Focused Parenting, about co-parenting with the long term in mind.
Note: This podcast was originally hosted on Barbara La Pointe’s website, which has since gone offline. I’ve reposted the episodes here so people still have access to the materials.
Transcript
Andrew Folkler: Okay, and welcome everyone to another episode of Broken Families, where we host conversations on divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m Barbara La Pointe. Today we are going to discuss co-parenting, and that’s why we’ve brought on a couple of guest speakers from Future Focused Parenting to help us take a deep dive into this topic.
Barbara La Pointe: Kira Dorrian and Deana Thayer are childbirth educators and the founders of Future Focused Parenting. Deana has been a childbirth educator and a birth doula for over 16 years, and Kira has been a parent coach for over a decade. They both specialize in preparing couples for their transition into empowered parenting.
Barbara La Pointe: So without further ado, welcome Kira and Deana.
Kira Dorrian: Thank you. Hi. Thanks for having us.
Barbara La Pointe: Fabulous to have you here. So we are all coaches here, and we know that sometimes, just having one powerful insight can change everything. So I was curious what type of insight might you both want our audience to walk away with that could empower them or support them, by the end of this conversation today?
Kira Dorrian: That’s a great question. Deana, do you wanna start or you want me to start?
Deana Thayer: Well I have a thought right off the bat that matches with what we’re about at Future Focused Parenting, and that is that if you have a strong why, the what and the how will go a lot better. And I think there’s probably nowhere that’s more true than in co-parenting.
Deana Thayer: And hopefully your why is the children. And if you can keep them as the focus, then what you do and how you do it in terms of how you interact with that ex-partner really changes. So that was just what jumped to my mind. We talk all the time about the why. In fact, every episode before we dive into the parenting topic, we share our own why for how we’ve handled that topic before getting into the nuts and bolts and practical tools.
Deana Thayer: And we are very practical, and we’ll share practical ideas today, but I just think that why is at the center. Kira, your thoughts?
Kira Dorrian: Yep.
Deana Thayer: What she said she
Kira Dorrian: What said. No, I totally agree, and I think what struck me is another thing you and I talk about a lot is starting with the end in mind, that whole future focus.
Kira Dorrian: And I would say especially for families that are at maybe the start of changing the dynamic and splitting apart it’s really easy in those moments to just be right here in this moment, right? We’re angry. There’s lots of feelings swirling. All this stuff’s going on. But to start with the end in mind, what do you want the dynamic to look like in five years?
Kira Dorrian: How do you wanna weather this time in a way that makes it as peaceful as possible as the kids are getting older, at graduation, at the wedding, at all those things? What do you have to do right now to make those things that are coming better and more peaceful and more loving?
Barbara La Pointe: So to know your why, to parent with the end in mind. And you also speak quite a bit in your practice about being an intentional parent or intentional parenting. What does that look like in your world to be an intentional parent? I know I’m always parenting on the fly. We’re just on the edge of our seats trying to keep up with the 21st century demands of COVID and parenting and but you’re asking us to become intentional, and I was wondering if you could chat with us about that don’t think you’re alone.
Deana Thayer: I think for one thing...
Kira Dorrian: No, and it’s a really hard but important shift to make because that intention is the why that Deana was talking about, right?
Kira Dorrian: And so it becomes about how do I figure out what is best in this situation, not necessarily what’s easiest or most expedient, and that’s really what intentional parenting is about. So the example we give a lot, when we’re talking about this is, and this isn’t related to co-parenting, but every parent has been here, is the toddler meltdown in the grocery store.
Kira Dorrian: So when the toddler melts down in the grocery store, what’s easiest or most expedient is to get the tantrum to stop, and an intentional parent is looking at not just trying to stop the tantrum, but trying to teach the child how do I regulate my emotions? How do I work through my feelings? What’s an appropriate response to what’s going on?
Kira Dorrian: And so the intentional parent is gonna get down on the child’s level and take that moment and take that opportunity even though, let’s be honest, that’s really hard when you’re just trying to get the groceries in the cart. But making that switch, having that why, why am I getting down to my child’s level?
Kira Dorrian: Why am I taking the time to do this hard thing when it would be easier to just bribe them with a lollipop? Having the why makes it easier to do that, and then when we do that, that is starting with the end in mind because now we’re really taking the opportunity to raise an adult that knows how to cope with their feelings, knows how to process their feelings, right?
Kira Dorrian: All of those things that we want with our grown adults actually start younger in what we’re doing in those moments.
Deana Thayer: Such a perfect example, too, because right there she gave an anecdotal example of how the why shaped the how and the what. So the getting down on a child’s level is very different than just giving them the candy bar to make them stop crying.
Deana Thayer: So the what was impacted by that why, which was exactly what I was describing at the top of the episode. And we always like to remind families that it doesn’t mean you’re never gonna get thrown a curveball, but when you parent this way the bulk of the time with intention, and when you co-parent this way the bulk of the time, the curveballs are not only easier to handle because you’re coming in with your overarching why and you know what you’re aiming at as a parent, but they also honestly do happen less often because you are gonna be less thrown off your game if you’re parenting this way the bulk of the time.
Deana Thayer: We all get thrown curveballs. It’s life, right? But we’re able to handle them far differently when this is our approach.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. It sounds like there’s a bit of reverse engineering that needs to take place. And so you have that end goal. You want your child to be a functional adult with strong emotional regulation, and you have to reverse engineer all the way back into where they’re at now and how do you get them, not so much to the next milestone, but to the next step.
Andrew Folkler: How would you go through that process of teaching them not to freak out just because they didn’t get what they wanted or to just work through those emotions that they’re having?
Kira Dorrian: Yeah. I’ve never heard it put that way, but that’s exactly right. I love that analogy of reverse engineering.
Kira Dorrian: That’s exactly it. And so it becomes not about fixing this moment, it’s that long game. It’s recognizing I’m gonna have to do this thing, this hard thing several times before my child maybe catches on to, oh, this is how I take that next step. This is how I regulate this piece, and then there’s gonna be all this other stuff that they’re learning, ‘cause they’re constantly learning and growing.
Kira Dorrian: But I love the reverse engineering metaphor. That’s great.
Deana Thayer: That’s good. Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. We talk about the handling just putting out the current fire as parenting, like playing a game of Whac-A-Mole, like at the fair. You’re just squashing whatever thing crops up. And what you just described, Andrew, with the reverse engineering, pulling it back and saying, “Okay, what do I need to do here to get to the adult I’m trying to raise out there?”
Deana Thayer: That’s very different than Whac-A-Mole parenting, and you’re exactly right. That is a great way to put it.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, ‘cause I imagine a lot of parents it would be more of a triggering reaction. They’re like, “Oh my God, he’s freaking out again. Why can’t he just act the way I need him to be?
Andrew Folkler: Why can’t I have my adult in a child’s body?” And all that kind of... And then it takes their mind away from the issue that needs to be addressed, and instead it’s putting themselves in a situation where they’re thinking of the problem and not thinking of the solution.
Deana Thayer: That’s it.
Deana Thayer: Very well said. And we hope to raise adults that aren’t still melting down in aisle nine. And know how to handle being upset or handle when something doesn’t go their way. So that’s just it. And especially, I think, when you’re going through conflict or a relationship is dissolving, we see kids melt down.
Deana Thayer: That’s their only way they know how to respond, especially if they’re real little. And mine were really small when I went through my divorce, one and three. And so often their confusion and feelings about what was happening did come out as a tantrum. So those are important skills to have on board if you’re navigating that.
Barbara La Pointe: One thing we know for sure is that we don’t get a manual on how to become a parent. We don’t get the parenting manual when we birth our children, nor do we get a parenting manual when we go through divorce. So, Deana, you brought it up. Let’s go there. Let’s talk about divorce. What tips might you both have for parents, divorcing and starting to learn how to navigate co-parenting through divorce?
Deana Thayer: It’s so disruptive to children. I think we often don’t realize, unless we’ve walked it, the ripple effects that it has. Of course, the adults, there’s something they’re going through. But what this does to children in terms of upending their life, now I have to pack a bag to go see a parent.
Deana Thayer: It might mean changing other venues. I know in our family, we not only moved houses, we also changed churches. There was a lot of shuffling, and I think that’s really hard. And I know we had talked in advance even before we hit record, and some of the things that there is a mental health piece here, too, and an anxiety piece.
Deana Thayer: And one of the things that I wanna say right off the top is some of that anxiety stems from two big things, the feeling of lack of control and things suddenly being inconsistent, like I just described. And I really want Kira to piggyback with the mental health piece, ‘cause she really brings a lot of expertise in that area.
Deana Thayer: But I do have a couple of tips around those two exact things. So first, that lack of control, I find it’s really helpful to give kids choices so they feel like they do have some control, even if it’s over the littlest things. For example, if you have a small child that’s into a certain character, maybe get them a backpack with that character on it because you can say, “You know what?
Deana Thayer: It stinks that now you have to pack a bag to go see your dad, but let’s pick a really fun bag.” It can be little things like that, but let them be the boss of what they can be, because so much of their life is gonna feel so out of control during this transition, and even, I would say, in the early years beyond the initial transition.
Deana Thayer: So where you can give choice, where you can give control, do it. If you’re not on a strict parenting plan and if it’s not super divisive, you can even have them involved in where would you like to meet up today? Where should we do the transition and the handoff?
Deana Thayer: Is there a restaurant you’d like to go to? Should we get ice cream first? Where can you give them back a little bit of control? That really helps. And then about the consistency and life going upside down I would say it might seem silly, but whatever you can leave the same, leave the same.
Deana Thayer: For us, it was school. My ex and I decided even if it means commuting, and it was a long commute, we’re keeping them in the same school because so much else has shifted. Let’s leave what we can leave the same. It could be as simple as the dentist, the pediatrician. Who can you keep in their lives as adults that they’re used to seeing, and what places and situations can you keep consistent?
Deana Thayer: That’s very helpful even if it seems peripheral like the dentist. It’s amazing how it helps them. Oh, I still go here to go get my teeth cleaned. At least that’s still the same.
Kira Dorrian: And then I would just jump in and add from the mental health perspective, and this kind of applies to parenting in general, but it is particularly important when kids are dealing with trauma, loss, grief, which unfortunately all three of those things apply as a family is dissolving.
Kira Dorrian: We have to first and foremost validate their feelings. It’s really tempting as a parent. You want to make it better, so you try and say, “Well, look at the positive,” or “Oh, don’t worry about that,” or, “Don’t feel that way.” But the thing is, this is enormous for them, and we have to be willing to let them feel that.
Kira Dorrian: And we want to dismiss it ‘cause we feel bad, right? Oh, this was a choice my partner and I made, and it’s impacting them, and that feels yucky, and I just want the yucky to go away. But the intentional piece, that why, coming back to I want my kids to weather this well, we’ve gotta start by allowing them to feel those feelings.
Kira Dorrian: So when they express that they’re mad or frustrated or sad or, “I can’t believe you did this,” or, “Why would you do...” You gotta let them do that and say, “That makes sense to me. I understand why you’re feeling that way. I would feel that way if I was in your shoes.” Or if you went through a divorce as a child yourself, “I remember feeling that way.”
Kira Dorrian: Please normalize and validate that what they’re experiencing is okay, because it is. And then we can look to how do we mitigate it. But we have to start by normalizing it and validating it.
Andrew Folkler: One of the-- I know you touched on how to validate a child’s opinions, but for maybe the more mechanical parents who are more logical and more, not emotionally strong within themselves or emotionally, attuned, would probably be better, the better word, what would be some tips or strategies you would have for them to better reach their children on an emotional level?
Kira Dorrian: Sure. I love that question so much. So we have something called the three Ns framework, and it works, like I said, for all of parenting. Any time your child’s feeling a big feeling, you’re gonna go step by step through the three Ns. So the first N is you’re gonna name it. So when they’re little, you’re gonna have to give them the word.
Kira Dorrian: “I can tell you’re feeling frustrated,” or, “You know what? You seem really sad.” Give them the word. What are they feeling? As they get older, they will hopefully express it to you. “I’m feeling sad.” And you can repeat back, “Yeah, I can see that. I can see you’re feeling sad,” or that, “Okay, that’s good.
Kira Dorrian: I’m glad you told me you’re feeling sad.” The second N is to normalize it. This is the step that so many parents miss. We cannot dismiss the feeling, especially if they’ve come to you and offered it to you and said, “I’m feeling sad.” We wanna say, “Oh, thank you for offering me that, letting me in.” So we normalize it, and if you’re an analytical, linear thinker, you just have to say, “That makes sense to me.”
Kira Dorrian: So simple. Or, “I can see why you feel that way.” I say that to my kids all the time. “You know what? That makes sense to me. I’d probably feel that way if I was in your shoes too.” Or if you’ve been through it, you can also normalize by offering your own experience. “You know what? That makes sense to me.
Kira Dorrian: I remember when I was seven...” And you can tell a little story about when that happened to you. And then the third N is to nurture the feeling. So if you’re getting a big reaction and maybe not appropriate behavior, we nurture by helping them figure out, how do I take what I’m feeling and channel it into an appropriate response or a healthy coping mechanism?
Kira Dorrian: Do we need to go for a walk around the block? Do we need to do some breathing? Do we need to do some jumping jacks? What do we need to do to channel that feeling? If they’re offering it to you in a way that’s totally appropriate, they’re crying, they need a hug, pull them into your lap, nurture that feeling.
Kira Dorrian: So if a kid comes to you and says, “I’m feeling really sad, Mom,” then you say, “You know what? Thank you for telling me you’re feeling sad. That makes sense to me. I would feel sad if I was in your shoes, too. Come, come here. Let’s have a hug. Let’s read a book.” That’s the three Ns in process.
Deana Thayer: And I think it’s important to just note that this shifts a little as kids get older, and some people’s relationships do dissolve when they don’t have toddlers anymore. And so the first, of course, is that first N, name it. You’re not gonna need to do that for it, so we often shift that to notice it.
Deana Thayer: So your tween or teen will probably just notice, “Wow, I’m really frustrated.” And it’s gonna be on them to do the first N, and then they may choose to share it with you, they may not. You still gotta do the normalizing piece if they do. And then that nurture piece, we’re gonna take more of a coaching role instead of offering all the tools in the toolbox.
Deana Thayer: “Do you wanna do some jumping jacks? Do you wanna sing a song?” A 16-year-old is gonna roll their eyes at you if you do that. But you can definitely make yourself available. “Would you like to talk about it?” If you know that they’re artistic, “Should I go grab your sketchbook for you?” And we’ve gotta also then be okay, though, if they say, “No, it’s okay.
Deana Thayer: I’d just like some time alone.” So it just shifts slightly where we’re more alongside as a guide instead of walking them right through it. But Kira’s exactly right. When they’re younger, we wanna really help them develop emotional vocabulary. We wanna be normalizing so they know, “Oh, I’m not the only person who’s felt like this.”
Deana Thayer: Laying that foundation is really important, but we just don’t wanna do that with a 17-year-old. It might not go quite as well.
Barbara La Pointe: Sometimes when children hit adolescence, they’re not offering up their feelings anymore. They’re more prone to going in their room or withdrawing.
Barbara La Pointe: I also have a sense that youths, children, youth, suffer from anxiety in greater proportions than ever before. Do you notice that in your practice? And what would you recommend specifically around children that are faced with anxiety or panic?
Deana Thayer: I think it is really prevalent. We actually have a whole talk on anxiety because we are seeing it so much.
Deana Thayer: It’s one of the things that we do speaking engagements on. It’s really, unfortunately, really quite widespread, and when parents know what to look for and how to help it, it does make a difference. I think to our topic today, I know that one of the things that was really helpful... Now my kids were small when this first happened, and now my youngest is 17.
Deana Thayer: So just in terms of the progression, if I saw anxiety in a small person, I think there, first of all, has to be the willingness to stop. It’s a little bit akin to what we were talking about in the grocery store, but it’s easy to wanna sweep this stuff aside and just keep going. But being willing to stop and engage with what’s happening is essential.
Deana Thayer: And I love what you said, Barbara, because you’re right. With an older one, they might not invite us into that moment, so we might need to offer. And there are some specific tools and things that we often talk with parents about, ways to get your feelings out when you’re little. Like singing is really great.
Deana Thayer: It helps you breathe and calm down, plus your mind is on the lyrics, so your mind is not on whatever is stressing you out or scaring you. Again, with an older, that might look differently. That might look more like, can I connect you with someone you might wanna talk to? Because olders may not pick you.
Deana Thayer: They might prefer actually to get a counselor on board or to talk to their soccer coach or a leader they have in their youth group, whatever it might be. So sometimes as we shift from I’m the one really doing it and owning a lot of that process to more of a guide and as someone who connects with resources.
Deana Thayer: But that willingness to stop when they’re small is important. I’ll tell you, one time one of my children had a very startling question about the day our divorce. Because for us there was a precipitating event and it was very traumatic, and the police came into our home.
Deana Thayer: And so I got a question about that in the car, and I literally pulled over because we needed to talk about it. I couldn’t just keep driving along. My child needed some answers, had some questions, had some big feelings. So that willingness to stop, and I think that stays true when they’re older, because if they do happen to bring you a feeling as a teenager, that’s really special.
Deana Thayer: So stop and be available for that. I know, Kira, you have more, but those are just some first thoughts.
Kira Dorrian: No, those are great thoughts. That’s what I would have said. Took the words out of my mouth.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay, so let’s take this moment just to pause and back up a bit, and just reinforce those words that you said.
Barbara La Pointe: So name it, notice it when they’re older or normalize it, and then nurture it.
Kira Dorrian: Yeah. So name it or notice it is the first N, depending on the age and the kid. Then the middle one is normalize it, and the third one is nurture it.
Barbara La Pointe: So as you’re integrating all of these skills into your parent-child relationship, is this what people refer to as building emotional intelligence in your child?
Kira Dorrian: Yeah. Emotional intelligence is really the ability for a child to recognize their feelings, and process and cope with those feelings in a healthy way. And also then to be able to recognize the emotional experience of someone else, and engage with them in an empathetic way. So that’s the combo pack of emotional intelligence.
Barbara La Pointe: So important to raise their EQ and not just their IQ.
Kira Dorrian: Yeah. And I love, Deana, what you said about the pulling over. I think when we are in big life events, like a divorce, we have to remember that that really needs to take precedence. It really does. Ultimately being late for school doesn’t matter as much as pulling over and giving your child what they need in that moment.
Kira Dorrian: We have a whole episode about resilience, and that word, and how much I dislike that word. And there’s this idea, “Kids are resilient. They’ll be fine.” I hear that all the time and it really drives me bananas because I think that it then allows parents to just not parent.
Kira Dorrian: “Okay, well, they’re high anxiety but you know what? Kids are resilient, they’ll be fine. Oh, there was a major trauma but you know what? Kids are resilient, they’ll be fine.” And the truth is that kids are adaptable and kids are really great at creating coping mechanisms. But real resilience is about being able to go through something in a healthy way and come out the other side without carrying the baggage and the trauma of that.
Kira Dorrian: So the idea of, “Oh, we’re just gonna ignore it ‘cause they’re gonna bounce back,” what they’re actually gonna do is develop an unhealthy coping mechanism because no one swooped in to go, “Hey, something major happened here. Let me help you figure out a healthy coping mechanism.” So to build resilient kids with high EQs and all of those things as you’re navigating a divorce is going to mean coming in, taking the time, prioritizing their mental health through this experience because that’s what’s gonna allow them to be resilient on the other side.
Deana Thayer: There’s a big difference between going through it and getting over it. And that’s where we get frustrated is sometimes our society is encouraging kids to get over it. Maybe in a well-meaning way, but that’s the message they’re getting. You’re gonna bounce back. It’s fine. We’re moving on. Not, how do I go through it, process the feelings that come with it, and come out the other side with maybe even new tools and new true resiliency looks like that, someone who can process the feelings, go through things, know how to connect with support that they might need, use the tools they have available. And of course, that’s where we come in as parents and as co-parents if there’s a two-household situation, there might only be one household that’s providing those tools.
Deana Thayer: So if that’s you, it’s extra important that you’re doing it, ‘cause they may not be getting it at the other home.
Andrew Folkler: And I think that ties in really well with the concept of being an intentional parent and thinking with the end in mind because, you’re focusing on that instead of the momentary frustrations that and the other thing that came to mind as well was, a lot of what you’re talking about sounds more like anti-fragility. It’s a concept spoken about by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, and versus resiliency, which is just a returning to the original state. Anti-fragility is more of a becoming stronger after a disturbance or the opposite of fragility.
Andrew Folkler: It doesn’t just shatter, it just becomes stronger. And that’s seen everywhere in our being. Anywhere from our bodies, for example. If we get a bad wound, we break a bone or something, the bone will fuse, and it’s not gonna return back to the original pristine condition.
Andrew Folkler: It’s going to be a little bit bumpier, a little bit, but it’s gonna be stronger in that regard. And I think that’s at least the concept that, I think you guys are speaking about and trying to foster within kids, especially when they’re, not sure how to regulate those emotions. And when people think about resiliency, they’re just removing the responsibility from themselves for what that future outcome’s going to be.
Andrew Folkler: And then subsequently being surprised, “Oh, I don’t know why you act like this.”
Kira Dorrian: Right. Well, and this is the thing. I use this terrible analogy of liposuction, but it really works. In that, if I get liposuction on my arm, I can’t get fat cells there again. But it doesn’t mean I’m not gonna get fat cells.
Kira Dorrian: They show up in weird spots, right? You’ll get back fat. So I call it back fat. It’s if you don’t deal with what’s here, you’re gonna end up with this weird back fat. And so you hear parents all the time like, “Well, I went through that and I’m fine,” but then they’re in counseling for some stuff and stuff that they’re dealing with and that’s because it’s back fat, right?
Kira Dorrian: So if we can help our kids, sorry for the analogy, but if we can really help them learn whatever it’s gonna take to reduce the arm fat, then they’re not gonna get the back fat, right? We’re not gonna see it show up in a different possibly less appropriate way.
Andrew Folkler: Powerful visual.
Barbara La Pointe: So I just wanna acknowledge that we’ve covered some incredible content and topics. As you’re both parent coaches, where would you like to move the conversation now that would be most stimulating for our audience and valuable for parents watching?
Deana Thayer: Well, I said early on that Kira and I really thrive on Equipping parents with not just the philosophical, but moving into the practical.
Deana Thayer: And so if I may, I’d love to give a couple tools if you’re co-parenting that can be helpful. Maybe just a little toolbox of dos and don’ts and things that can be helpful if that feels comfortable.
Barbara La Pointe: Bring it on.
Barbara La Pointe: On the toolbox.
Deana Thayer: And they’re learned through real life experience.
Deana Thayer: So I’m not saying I did all of these beautifully from the start, definitely not. But some things that I think crop up when parents are like, “Yeah, but what do I do? I really don’t like this person,” or, “They’re making things really difficult for me,” or, “They keep dragging me back and back to court, and I just wanna move on and close that chapter.”
Deana Thayer: And the sad news is you might be able to close a chapter, but if you have children, you’re still reading that book for life. That just is what it is. There are gonna be things forever. You might be sharing finances because of school. We’re splitting paying for higher education. I’m not done yet, right?
Deana Thayer: And there’s gonna be weddings or baby showers or whatever. So you... The rush to close the chapter, I would caution about that because you’re really gonna be doing this for the long haul, and that’s a better perspective to have to just know, okay, I need to settle in. This is not gonna be over next Thursday.
Deana Thayer: And what do we do, though? While we’re settling in and reading this book we really don’t maybe wanna be reading anymore. We’re like, “I’m over it. I wanna skip to the end.” And so there’s a couple things that can be helpful. And my number one rule I always share is please, please, please, if you need to say something negative about that other parent, find a friend.
Deana Thayer: Get a counselor. Don’t say that stuff in front of your kids. It will not endear you to them. I’ve seen over and over... Actually, my husband and I now lead a group for blended families, so we deal with that step-family dynamic and how do you not comment on your ex... I have an ex-wife-in-law now.
Deana Thayer: So that is so important, though, because kids are always listening, they’re always watching, and you may have some frustration about their other parent. That’s legitimate, especially if it’s a high-conflict divorce or it’s been very divisive and very abrasive. But that’s gotta go somewhere else.
Deana Thayer: I’ve seen time and time again where a parent thinks, “Oh, if I can just gently point out what the other parent’s doing wrong, they’re actually gonna pick me.” That backfires 100% of the time. They actually will then go toward the other parent because you’re setting up this dynamic of it’s nitpicky and naggy, and it’s gross to a kid.
Deana Thayer: And you know what? They’re half of that person. So if they hear you saying something icky about their mom or their dad, they’re like, “Well, I’m half that, so are you saying something negative about me? That’s not gonna make me like you more and wanna spend more time here for visitation.” So my biggest rule, if you can do nothing else from what we talk about today, please keep any negative talk about that other parent away from children’s ears, even teenagers.
Deana Thayer: There’s just not a place for it. That’s the biggest thing. And then another practical tool is, and you might have to work toward this, and I also wanna say in advance not everyone can do it, but if you can get to a place where you can at least both attend events, maybe you never get to that place where you can sit by each other.
Deana Thayer: I can now sit with my ex-husband and his new wife. Not everyone can get there. But what was a really great milestone for us is when we could both attend. We didn’t have to say, “Who’s going to this concert? And I can’t be around you, so who gets to go to the gymnastics thing?” If you can just both be there, that says a lot to your children.
Deana Thayer: Wow, I get to at least see both of my parents in the same place, ‘cause that’s a big loss to them, that they no longer see both parents in their home at the same time. So seeing both parents at the recital, at the concert, whatever it might be, is big. And then I shared this on an episode of our show once, but it’s been a great little tool.
Deana Thayer: When I know that it’s my day after the concert or after the recital, whatever it is, I encourage my children, “When you’re done, go say hi to your dad first.” ‘Cause I know they’re coming home with me at the end of the night. So I want them to go run up the bleachers and find him and talk to him.
Deana Thayer: And if you can just offer them that freedom to not feel like they get off the stage and go, uh-oh, I have to pick. Who do I go talk to first? It’s a lovely gift you can offer them. So if it’s your day, you can just make the policy for yourself, I’m gonna encourage them to just go to that other parent first.
Deana Thayer: It’s such a blessing to them. And the same goes for their enjoyment of visitation. And I’m not kidding when I say work, I worked to get to a place where I could say, “I hope you have a great weekend with your dad.” And then when they would come home to say, “Tell me about it.
Deana Thayer: What did you do? Did you have fun?” To separate my grown-up feelings about our relationship from my kids’ absolute right and privilege to love both of their parents, and that I don’t need to be bitter about the fact that they had a great time. And this analogy of gift keeps coming up because it’s a gift you give them to not make them feel like, oh, they have to hide that they had fun, or they have to hide that they’re excited to go, ‘cause you’re gonna be pouting about it.
Deana Thayer: So if we can set aside those grown-up things that they don’t need to carry, give those to your therapist, give those to your friend, give those to your own spouse. They don’t have to carry your grown-up feelings. Let them have their positive feelings about the other parent. So I’ve talked a lot. I’m gonna shut up now.
Deana Thayer: But those are just some practical things that I think can be really helpful if you have a way to do it. And if you don’t, if you can’t come to that together, you can decide, in my house, I’m happy for them about a fun weekend. In my house, I say, “Feel free to go find your dad after the show. I’ll see you when we head home.”
Deana Thayer: You decide to do it that way. That’s still a gift you can give them, even if the other home doesn’t reciprocate. ‘Cause that’s the other challenge, right, is sometimes parents go, “Well, I don’t wanna give ‘cause they’re not giving the same thing back. Where is the reciprocation?” We’ve gotta be willing to be the bigger person and do it in our house.
Deana Thayer: ‘Cause we wanna raise those great adults.
Kira Dorrian: And you know what? They will remember it. Because again, when we’re looking at start with the end in mind, your adult children will remember that that’s how you behaved, and they will carry that. And I can just say, I’m married to my only husband, but I am the child of divorce, and my parents did all these things that Deana just described, and I could cry.
Kira Dorrian: It was such a gift to me. The greatest gift they ever gave me was I went to New York City for college, and I would fly home, and they picked me up at the airport together and took me out for dinner every single time. And I don’t know what they had to do to make that happen. I don’t know how many therapy sessions happened in the lead up to that every time, but what a gift to me to come home.
Kira Dorrian: That’s how it felt. I’m coming home. And my parents did all these things, and I can truly say I never felt like I lost my sense of home, because they worked so hard to be as cohesive as they could. And I’m not saying that’s easy. I’m sure that is a nightmare and a half. But that intention, that why, that long game.
Kira Dorrian: What do you want your adult children to look back and say my parents did? You’re looking at an adult child who’s literally teary over what my parents gave me and how hard that must have been for them. But I have so much respect for what they did, so it’s worth it. It’s worth it.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s beautiful, and maybe I’ll just add that, it’s never too late to give that gift.
Barbara La Pointe: It’s really never too late. You had to come to that place, Deana, you said. But even after years, you could still try and give that gift to your kids. So I have goosebumps. It’s so wonderful what you’re saying. So we grow up without our parents, and we really truly feel homeless.
Barbara La Pointe: Or we might as an adult develop a fear of being homeless and wonder, “Why is this happening?” And we have to then unpack all of that back to our childhood. “Oh, I didn’t have the love of my mother. Oh, I missed my dad for most of my childhood because of divorce and not receiving that gift.” So that’s an preventable inherited family trauma.
Barbara La Pointe: So thank you for that.
Barbara La Pointe: Andrew?
Andrew Folkler: I think again it’s all about intentionality. Forget how to turn that into a noun. But it’s all about being intention-focused, being an intentional parent. And I think that a lot of what you’re saying, we definitely echo the same things in previous episodes and previous experts, same deal.
Andrew Folkler: Not degrading the other parent, not even... And I liked even how you were saying, don’t even try and be subtle about it. Just nipping it at the bud and saying, “We gotta make sure that we’re not only being polite and not expressing those frustrated feelings about the other parent,” but even going so far as to take a giver’s gain kind of mindset.
Andrew Folkler: That by being open and vulnerable and saying, “Yeah, I hope you have a good time. Go out, have some fun. Talk to mom or dad first real quick. We’ll talk more later.” Or we can even, like how you were saying earlier, “We’ll meet up at some place that you like to go to.” And in Kira’s example, having both parents there, that’s something I know I wish I would’ve had growing up, and I think that’s an incredibly it says a lot about your emotional strength as a parent. And as a child, you’d look up to that, and you would want to that’s something you would wanna emulate. And I think that’s just very empowering overall.
Deana Thayer: That’s really powerful what Kira said about when you said that it made you feel like you were coming home, because I think that’s something we hear a lot from children in a divorce situation is neither house is home. I’m going to mom’s or I’m going to my dad’s, but you don’t really often hear them say, “I’m going home.”
Deana Thayer: And so the two parents together was your home. And so that’s why that is such a gift because they often aren’t able to describe one place or the other as home. Home is my parents are working to make sure I still have the most consistency, the most love, the most compassion, and that I can see that.
Deana Thayer: That’s home. That’s what home has to become because it’s not gonna be just one building anymore.
Barbara La Pointe: So any other pragmatic tips that you’d like to send out into the world before we close our call today?
Deana Thayer: So Kira, I gave 47. So.
Kira Dorrian: I need to stop. No, you’re the one who’s lived, you’ve lived it. I think it’s probably worth maybe unpacking more, you said something really important, which is what do we do if the co-parent just isn’t interested in any of this, right?
Kira Dorrian: Or is making it really difficult, and how important it is that in your house, this is your choice. But that’s really challenging, right? If someone’s thwarting you at every turn, ‘cause sometimes you hear about this where this is what a parent is dealing with, is they’re trying to do the best, they’re trying to do the right thing.
Kira Dorrian: They’re trying to keep things consistent. The other parent is just determined to thwart their every move. I know you work with blended families all the time who are going through this. So what do you advise them when they are dealing with that, when it’s not cohesive?
Deana Thayer: Yeah. Because unfortunately, I think our two situations are the anomaly.
Deana Thayer: That’s fair. And really, this is the overarching principle, is that you have to decide what is worth being a hill to die on and what isn’t. And so things like who’s gonna pay for ballet probably aren’t worth an upheaval if every time your child is interested in an activity, that ex-partner is battling you and, “I don’t wanna pay for it,” and now you’re gonna go end up going to court.
Deana Thayer: It might be where if you can’t afford it, you might have to not do it and do the activity. But it might be if your family’s in a position to afford it, you go, “Okay, we’ll take care of it.” To diffuse rather than create a fire, that is a huge thing. Now, that being said, there are times where it’s worth the stand.
Deana Thayer: And so we talk to our blended families a lot about what are those issues. Of course, safety is one. Of course, your family values are one. So meaning that if the other home is undermining what you’re trying to teach your children about values, kindness, compassion, maybe one home has a faith paradigm and one doesn’t.
Deana Thayer: That’s where it becomes important to say, “You know what? We obviously are not gonna come to an agreement, but I do need you to know this is what’s happening at my house.” There’s no reason to back down from what you’re doing in your home. It’s just that if there’s a way to keep this from happening, we always would say keep that from happening, even if it’s frustrating to you that you’re having the same circular argument.
Deana Thayer: What we often feel like, I know I can speak for myself too, is that I’m on a spiral staircase. I’m like, “Oh, this again.” I’ve come back to this issue. Even after being divorced as long as I have, and I’ve been divorced since ‘08. The key here is if somebody’s really bent on creating conflict everywhere they go, then unfortunately, and this is a hard word to hear, but unfortunately then you have the job to decide what’s worth going to bat over and which things can you diffuse, and it’s amazing.
Deana Thayer: Most actually can be diffused. There’s a few where you have to toe the line. I’ve had to have some hard conversations with my ex-spouse and say, “You know what? On this one, I just can’t budge. I need to do it this way in my home. I would love if you would do it with me, but if you won’t, I’m still doing this thing.”
Deana Thayer: And other times where it’s not worth it and I need to just wash my hands and go, “All right. We’re paying for the thing or whatever.” So that’s a big one. If we can learn to be a people in general, humankind, who diffuse rather than add fuel to the fire, we’re gonna see positive things, not just in divorce.
Deana Thayer: But it’s just not easy, and I wanna acknowledge that. I think sometimes you can throw a tip out and it sounds simple when you say it wrapped up in a nugget of two sentences, “Here, try this, try that.” Doesn’t mean that living that is simple, and I just wanna acknowledge that and that’s why I said even for me, I didn’t get there right away.
Deana Thayer: Absolutely not. It was over time, and bringing my why with me, my intention of you know what? I want kids who... They’re going to be affected by this, there’s no question, but I wanna mitigate the trauma of this event in their lives to the best of my ability, and that has to win out over winning an argument with the ex.
Deana Thayer: What has to win are my children.
Andrew Folkler: So I got a interesting question that just popped up in my head, and I know that start with why is a pretty big concept, whether you’re in the business world and then even just applying it here in parenting, and I think at a, what do you call it?
Andrew Folkler: A superficial level we could say having your kids be your why is a really powerful thing. But how would we really define that for ourselves on a case by case basis? What are the things we would look for to really understand what that why is, so that way it’s not only personal to us, but it makes us want to chase it that much more instead of just being a vague abstract in our head?
Andrew Folkler: Or that might even be driven by emotion. Maybe if someone, especially if a parent projects onto their kids a lot or something like that. How do we differentiate our own emotions and the why, if that makes sense?
Kira Dorrian: Yeah. That’s a great question, and I think it’s the combo pack of the why and the long game, the future focused.
Kira Dorrian: That’s the key. Because they inform each other. And I think if a lot of parents stopped and really went, “My behavior in this moment, how’s that gonna impact my kid in 10 years if they see this over and over and over and over again?” They would make different choices. And I think it’s that. So having the where do I want this to go, where’s the end, settle in, like Deana said.
Kira Dorrian: This is the long game. So what do I want it to look like at the wedding? What do I want it to look like when they have a baby? What do I want it to look like? That informs your why. So my why is my kids, and what do I want that relationship between my kids and I and their experience to be 10 years from now, 20 years from now?
Kira Dorrian: And that will help you figure out the hill to die on, I think, right? Because ballet lessons, yes, I want my kid to have that experience, but if it causes conflict and more drama between my ex-partner and I, and that harms my child, will the ballet have been worth it? No. In 10 years when they look back, what are they gonna remember?
Kira Dorrian: Thinking about those kinds of things, and that helps inform your decision. Because we see parents go in all directions on this, right? They die on every hill. Or in my experience, one of the things that I didn’t love was my mom chose no hills to die on, and that felt really hard, ‘cause I think she just wanted it to be peaceful.
Kira Dorrian: But to me, there were choices she made that made me feel like she didn’t care, right? Or I wasn’t wanted. So one of them was a custody battle. My dad was really clear, like, “I will fight you if you try and take her from me.” And my mom just went, “Okay,” instead of saying, “Let’s figure this out together, because I want her in my life, too.”
Kira Dorrian: Does that make sense? So I think some of those hills, it helps you figure it out. In 10 years, is my daughter gonna remember that I fought to make sure she was in my life? Yeah, she is. Is she gonna remember that she did ballet or not? No, she’s not. So I think when you start to kind of look at that long game, it starts to inform the why choices.
Kira Dorrian: I don’t know if that answered your question.
Deana Thayer: I think that was great, Kira. Now that I’m done talking. No, that was so good, and what a great personal example, too, with your mom dying on no hills. And the other thing I like that you brought up, Andrew, and I think is worth mentioning, is that it is individual.
Deana Thayer: Yes, the basic why, especially in this scenario, needs to be the children, but it doesn’t mean that each family doesn’t have a nuanced why. What are you aiming at? We encourage families to really get clear on their own personal why. Our podcast is called Raising Adults for a reason. So we encourage people to look at who are the adults you’re trying to raise?
Deana Thayer: And then what’s the why that will get you there? And so even though of course in the sphere of my divorce, the why was the children, I have my parenting why, which for me is raising people of integrity who have a moral compass. Kira’s overarching why in her family is kids who are mentally and emotionally healthy and happy.
Deana Thayer: That’s the thing we’re aiming at. So I’m glad you brought that to bear as well because while you’re right, if it’s just, well, the kids, that can get a little too fuzzy for some people. We would encourage them, can you nail that down even more? What kind of people do you hope they are in 10 years, 20 years, and how are the choices you make now in your parenting and in your co-parenting going to get you there?
Deana Thayer: So there is room for that customizing of the why, and there has to be. Because otherwise, if you don’t care enough about your why, your what’s won’t match it.
Kira Dorrian: Right. And I think just to add to that, Deana, because you’re exactly right, to take what she just said. So if you look at a home that the goal is integrity, children, adults of integrity, and in my home, adults who are mentally healthy and happy, and then you take it to what we’re talking about right now.
Kira Dorrian: Well, me picking the kids in my home, that would mean I’m picking emotionally healthy and happy. So I’m gonna be making choices throughout a divorce or whatever’s going on in our parenting life that take my kids toward emotionally healthy and happy. For Deana in her home during her divorce, integrity, kids who grow up to be adults of integrity, well, that’s definitely gonna inform the way she talks about her partner, the ex-partner, the way that she engages in the conversations that are going on, et cetera, et cetera.
Kira Dorrian: So that’s the tangible, right? Of that’s what it actually looks like. When we pick the kids, we’re picking what are we aiming at for them, and how do we then have to take that and apply it to this divorce or apply it to this current thing that’s going on in our lives?
Deana Thayer: Again, the reverse engineering.
Deana Thayer: Thanks for that, Andrew.
Andrew Folkler: No, I think I really like both of your answers combined. It was just incredibly powerful. And I know that a listener, it would probably make more sense to them because at least on a parallel, not parallel to parenting, and probably more relevant to all four of us as well, in the business world they always talk about start with your why first.
Andrew Folkler: If you get into business saying, “I wanna make money,” then it’s just okay, well, good luck because it’s never gonna be about making money. It’s never gonna be about the rich life or the living on the beachfront because that’s your thinking end game stuff without thinking about how to get to that process.
Andrew Folkler: And really it comes down to the service and the giving. Like you were saying earlier, being giving and giving, so much to the point that you are focused on something that is near and dear to your heart, whether that’s a better life for yourself, better life for family, et cetera, et cetera.
Andrew Folkler: That why is what saves or kills the business. And your business is your baby in this an analogy, and likewise, it translates into parenting as well.
Kira Dorrian: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, if you take it back to that grocery store thing that we started with, right?
Kira Dorrian: So Deana and I get down to the child’s level for different reasons, but we both still get down to the child’s level, right? She gets down because she’s raising kids of integrity. I get down ‘cause I’m raising emotionally healthy and happy kids. And so the how looks really similar, but the why that got us to go down to their level is different, and that’s where it’s personal.
Barbara La Pointe: I guess for me it’s I’m just impacted by how you can really start to make different choices and all the choice points along the road in your parenting just by having some of these questioning conversations about the future, about how you want your child’s life to look. You can actually start to make more informed choices and less reactive choices, so very powerful what you’re sharing today.
Kira Dorrian: Thank you.
Andrew Folkler: Definitely journal-worthy material. Just write down those questions in a journal. Just sit down at your table or whatever, just hash them out, free flow write it, and really get those ideas out. Cross out the ones that you realize are not so relevant.
Andrew Folkler: And I think that’ll help listeners find their why a little bit more on a nuanced level. Otherwise, definitely talk to you guys.
Kira Dorrian: We really encourage families to sit down, and that family can be you and your kiddo or just you if your kids are too young, to figure out, what are the values and what are deana and I each have a literal list hung up in our houses, ‘cause we’re dorks. But top 10 family values. What do they mean? What are the definitions? Our kids know it. They know the values. They know the definition. And then we parent toward those values all the time. Those values are the stepping stones to the overarching why.
Kira Dorrian: That’s how we get there. And so as people, if people are interested in engaging with what we do, we have a whole thing on this. We have an episode on this. And we actually have a freebie that we give out, if you go to our website, futurefocusedparenting.com or go to bit.ly/raisingadultspodcast, and it signs you up to our little newsletter, which we don’t flood your inbox.
Kira Dorrian: But you get 12 months of character traits, which really are those values. So things like emotional intelligence, wisdom, kindness, integrity. And it’s got all these different resources, activities, definitions. How do you talk with your kids about integrity? How do you model integrity? What kind of things do you need to be asking yourself about integrity?
Kira Dorrian: What are activities you can do with them to foster integrity? So there’s like 12 months of that to help parents start to figure out what are the values, what are the things that matter, and what do I wanna focus on? And then because it signs you up to our newsletter, you get a few right away. And there’s one on chores, but there’s one all about how do you build your set of values now based on what you’ve received from us.
Kira Dorrian: And it’s all free. So all you have to do is go to the website. It’s like right at the bottom. You can sign up. Or bit.ly/raisingadultspodcast.
Andrew Folkler: That’s definitely sounds like some really powerful stuff there.
Andrew Folkler: All righty. Well, I guess it looks like we are coming up to the top of the hour.
Andrew Folkler: And Barbara and I have a tradition where we always give speakers one more chance just to anything that they feel that was left unsaid, any final pearls of wisdom, share with the audience, or even just closing statements that will help the audience just get that last bit, just last golden nugget before the episode ends.
Deana Thayer: That’s really great. I am gonna piggyback off Barbara, actually. I’d like to close with encouragement about that piece of it’s never too late. Kira and I talk a lot about being willing to make a course correction. If you’re an intentional parent, it also means it’s okay to say to your kids even, “You know what?
Deana Thayer: This hasn’t been going great, and I’m gonna be doing some things differently.” could be doing better. And that can happen whether your kids are four or 14, and that it really isn’t too late. If there are things you heard today that you think, “Oh, I might be able to implement that,” start. That’s okay, and that there’s encouragement on the other side that I want you to hear that I validate that difficulty, and I’ve walked that and I’m not saying it’s easy.
Deana Thayer: I wanna say, though, that it can be done, and that even if you can’t get to where you even feel like you’d use the word co-parenting, that you can be a great intentional parent who is no longer with your past partner. That’s my encouragement to you. That peace can happen. You can be intentional.
Deana Thayer: You can have a strong why. You can create consistency for your children even if the scenario doesn’t lend itself to that.
Kira Dorrian: And I would just say, there’s so much on this topic, right? Not just the future focus, but the single parenting, blended families, going through divorce.
Kira Dorrian: It’s just huge. And Deana talks about this on our show all the time, so if people are interested in more of how do you take future-focused parenting and apply it to this particular scenario, I would just encourage people to check out our podcast, which is Raising Adults, because there’s lots of episodes all about the combo pack of that.
Barbara La Pointe: Great. Thank...
Andrew Folkler: You. Well, I know you mentioned it earlier, but as a quick formality, Kira and Deana, what would be the best way for listeners to reach out to you if they wanted to learn more about you and, learn more about the things that you do?
Kira Dorrian: Yeah. The best way to find us is our website, which is futurefocusedparenting.com.
Kira Dorrian: You can listen to the podcast there. You can get your freebie there. You can become a member there. Members are really how we keep our show running, so we’re really grateful for people who hop on there. And you can also find us on social media. We’re on Facebook and Instagram at FutureFocusedParenting.
Andrew Folkler: It looks like that is all we’ve got time for today. Once again, thank you for taking the time to be with us, and if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our channel either on YouTube or through the podcast, platforms available. On to you, Barbara.
Barbara La Pointe: And if you would like to contact me regarding any questions with respect to divorce, trauma, or conflict, reach out to me at barbara@barbaralapointe.com.