In this episode, Andrew and Barbara talk with Maryann Petri, author of Dismantling Family Court Corruption and host of Slam the Gavel, about how she fought back as a pro se litigant to get her children back.
Note: This podcast was originally hosted on Barbara La Pointe’s website, which has since gone offline. I’ve reposted the episodes here so people still have access to the materials.
Transcript
Andrew Folkler: Welcome everyone to another episode of Broken Families, where we host conversations on divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m Barbara La Pointe. Today we are going to discuss family court reform and the harm that a high-conflict person can inflict on their partner during divorce.
Barbara La Pointe: And that is why we have brought on a very special guest, Maryann Petri, to help us really dive deep into this topic. Maryann Petri was once a nurse in what seemed a happy family, until one day her family fell apart during divorce. Due to the high conflict brought in by her ex, Maryann had her children taken from her and then later alienated from her.
Barbara La Pointe: Maryann has fought back as a pro se litigant, learning case law and researching parental alienation to get her children back. She appealed to the Superior Court and emerged victorious. Today, Maryann has turned from victim to fierce advocate for parents suffering from parental alienation and for family court reform.
Barbara La Pointe: She is also the host of the fellow podcast, Slam the Gavel, which just hit over 7,000 downloads recently, and is the author of several books, most notably Dismantling Family Court Corruption, a book that has been optioned by a producer in Canada to be made into a film. So such an honor to have you here today, Maryann.
Maryann Petri: Thank you for having me on.
Barbara La Pointe: Yes. You’ve got an incredibly riveting story, including time in jail, which is always a really interesting part for me. But let’s just begin with your book. You’ve written a book called Dismantling Family Court Corruption. It’s been optioned into a Canadian film, and it’s an amazing book, so I invite you to tell us about that.
Maryann Petri: Okay, well, I had to write the book because I had so many people asking me what happened, what happened to the kids. It was just like a constant thing with people. So it’s like I’ve gotta write this book, but I put it off for about maybe three years, ‘cause I didn’t even want to.
Maryann Petri: But I went downstairs, I pulled out the transcripts, brainstormed for titles. So I came up with Dismantling Family Court Corruption: Why Taking the Kids Was Not Enough. Then I sat down with the transcripts, which were disgusting, and I found even more information that I really didn’t realize was happening even though I was sitting in the courtroom having it unfold before me.
Maryann Petri: Then you’re reading a transcript and you’re going, “That actually was said?” So I started writing this book. I started at 6:00 A.M. I didn’t finish till my husband got home, which was around 6:30, and I had it done in two months, ‘cause I just wanted it done.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s very inspiring. What were you hoping the outcomes of your book would be?
Maryann Petri: Well, to show people what can happen to you when you are co-parenting at 50/50 shared custody, because in the beginning we did get divorced, but we wanted to keep it out of the courts. My ex stated, “I don’t want to go into court.” And it’s like well, I didn’t even think of that to begin with.
Maryann Petri: I just thought we’d just get divorced and we would do our own thing with the kids, which is what we did for a period of years until I had this great idea to introduce him to a distant acquaintance. I was not aware, I don’t know if I was aware or if I knew that she worked in the courthouse. Then what happened was in time she inserted herself into the co-parenting relationship, dismembered it, along with the beginnings of the brainwashing of my children.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay, so just to clarify my understanding, so you guys were pretty amicable. You wanted to keep it out of the courts, and then you introduced your ex to this woman. They hooked up.
Maryann Petri: Oh, rather quickly, I might add. They spoke on the phone for four hours. Within two weeks she moved in. I don’t think that’s right to do to kids.
Maryann Petri: Kids have to adjust to a new relationship and what should be a lengthy relationship before a marriage takes place, but seven months later they married.
Barbara La Pointe: They got married, and then things went downhill for you.
Maryann Petri: Very quickly...
Barbara La Pointe: And your children.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay, so what kind of things started happening? I’m curious.
Maryann Petri: Well, this brainwashing, it’s very insidious. My oldest was making denigrating comments to me, and I don’t know why she’s... I did question her. “Why would you say that?” I thought she was maybe trying to be independent. She was 10 going on 11. You kind of blow it off because you think, well, they’re trying to be independent, even though I would say, “Don’t talk to me like that,” or, “Why would you say that?”
Maryann Petri: And I really didn’t get an answer out of her. So it just continuously snowballed And then when I went to get married, years later, probably four years later after they got married, then all hell broke loose.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay, so you said that things snowballed when she got involved. So your children started making some denigrating comments to you.
Barbara La Pointe: What else snowballed? What exactly are you talking about?
Maryann Petri: Okay. If I had an issue with disciplining the kids, it would have to be a bad one for me to call the ex and say, “Hey, I’m having a problem with this one.”
Maryann Petri: I didn’t call him all the time because I don’t... I can handle things myself, but sometimes you need male backup. You really do. I used to work on a psych unit, and we always had male backup. It makes a big difference to hear the growl of a male voice, right? It just makes people behave.
Barbara La Pointe: Well, and at this point, you were amicable with your ex-husband, the father of your children, so it makes sense to me.
Maryann Petri: Right, and I was not calling him every week. Maybe every two months or something, we’ll say. So I went to call him when this woman was living in the house with him, and all of a sudden he said hello on the phone, and then I hear her screaming her head off. I’m trying to listen to what she’s saying, and then he started screaming his head off.
Maryann Petri: And he’s screaming that all the problems were in my house, and it’s like I didn’t know what to do with all the screaming, so I hung up. I just didn’t know how to handle that. It’s like I can’t talk to someone if I hear all the screaming. So that’s what was happening, and it just deteriorated.
Maryann Petri: It’s like I just didn’t bother calling him anymore. They talk about children growing up in fatherless homes. Well, I can tell you what happens when children grow up in motherless homes later. But there was an incident prior to my marriage where my middle son hit the youngest one. And I went to my middle son, I said, “Why are you doing this?
Maryann Petri: You’re making his life miserable.” And he looked at me and he said, “You goddamn right I am.” And I was like, “Whoa.” And then he said, “I’m gonna call the police on you.” And I thought, “I think I’m gonna beat you to it.” So I called the state police and I said, “I think I need some help over here. Can you send a trooper over to talk to my son?”
Barbara La Pointe: And how old was your son, if I might ask?
Maryann Petri: They were 10, nine and 10.
Maryann Petri: And again, you needed a male backup. I didn’t wanna put my fiance in the middle. I’ve always told him, “Just let me handle disciplining the kids. I don’t wanna involve you. I want them to like you.”
Maryann Petri: So the state trooper came over and had a good one-to-one chat with my middle son, and I can tell you it did wonders. It was night and day difference. He never hit his brother again, and it was actually miraculous, the transformation, to have a state trooper come over and give him what for.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s very interesting.
Barbara La Pointe: But what I’m hearing underneath that, and correct me if I’m wrong, Maryann, is that you’re starting to see some behavior problems with your kids because of divorce.
Barbara La Pointe: And then things got much worse for you and your kids.
Barbara La Pointe: Is that true?
Maryann Petri: That is true because the younger one was displaying high anxiety, like going to school and just losing it, ending up in the counselor’s office, and I would have to drive to school to talk him into calming down to go back into his classroom.
Barbara La Pointe: Because at this point, your divorce is less amicable.
Barbara La Pointe: Co-parenting problems are showing up. You’ve got problems with your ex, behavior problems with your children because of your divorce.
Barbara La Pointe: And now anxiety in your child, so a lot, you had a lot going on.
Andrew Folkler: And I would add the blame shifting as well, considering that they’re essentially creating this toxic environment for the kids.
Andrew Folkler: And the kids are carrying that anxiety, that frustration, and all the internalized trauma within their own lives to your home, and acting it out there. And as a result they’re also blaming you for that.
Maryann Petri: I’m glad you said that, because when something like this goes askew and you’ve got interference, it’s not gonna go well, and that’s the dark side of 50/50 shared parenting, okay?
Maryann Petri: Because this is what can happen, and there’s no going back once this happens.
Barbara La Pointe: I actually like that you said that, because sometimes we see so many individuals advocate for a default 50/50 parenting plan, but there are some shadow sides to it, as you saw in your family.
Maryann Petri: Yeah, and I think sometimes it can be going great, but the other spouse has to have the strength to tell their new future wife or future husband to stay out of it.
Maryann Petri: “It’s working fine between me and him,” or, “Her and me. Just stay out of it, and we’re just gonna keep things going as they are.” And if they wanna interfere, they’ve gotta be told, “No. Stand down.”
Barbara La Pointe: Boundaries. But that didn’t happen in your case.
Maryann Petri: No.
Barbara La Pointe: So what happened next, Maryann?
Maryann Petri: Well, I’ll fast-forward into getting into an argument with the oldest, who is almost going to be 17.
Maryann Petri: And what happened was there were issues we were arguing about that these are normal family issues. However, she chose to go live with her father. So be it I didn’t know it was going to turn into such a disaster. Dropped everybody off at school, and I did not know that was gonna be the last time I would be seeing her.
Maryann Petri: Within couple hours, I received a phone call from CPS wanting to come over to my home in a couple hours. And stupidly, I said, “Sure, come on over,” when I should have said, “No, you’re not coming over. I’m going to call my attorney.” And that’s where things really went haywire.
Barbara La Pointe: So, powerful lesson. You didn’t know that back then.
Barbara La Pointe: You were just doing the best you could. And just a little foreshadowing, you’ve actually got a federal lawsuit happening with CPS right now, correct?
Maryann Petri: Correct.
Barbara La Pointe: CPS calls you up. What happened next? ‘Cause that’s very serious.
Maryann Petri: Oh. Well, it just got... it was crazy because my parents were there because they usually ate with us on Tuesdays.
Maryann Petri: And so she came through the door and the first words out of her mouth were, “If you’re indicated for emotional child abuse, you will lose your job as a registered nurse.” And that was a huge red flag, where I should’ve said, “Out. Calling the attorney now.” And my parents had taken my youngest to the park or the thrifty shop, or I don’t know where they took him, ‘cause they wanted her to, I guess, interview me.
Maryann Petri: And luckily, my husband was laid off, so he could be a witness to the nuttiness of the screaming this caseworker was gonna put me through.
Barbara La Pointe: Are you saying that the CPS worker screamed at you?
Maryann Petri: Oh, she was screaming at me at the top of her lungs. Do you know how when your ears ring when you’re hearing such a loud noise?
Maryann Petri: And I’m looking at my husband, and he’s looking at me like, “What do we do with her?” And what we should’ve done is said, “Out. Get out.” And the thing was she’s sitting there screaming, “Do you hate your ex more than you love your kids?” And I’m trying to process this going... ‘Cause I’ve never been screamed at like that since I’ve worked on a psych unit.
Maryann Petri: Usually, mental patients scream at you like that because they’re not getting their way or something’s gone wrong. And I’m like, “Okay.” So she probably said that four times to me, and I’m going, “Okay.” Then she changed the subject into a pension fund. She started divulging financial information that only she would be able to get from my ex-husband.
Maryann Petri: She really didn’t discuss the oldest leaving my home or why or what that problem was. She barely touched on it. Okay, so she talked about that pension fund and why I was unhappy with my child support amount which was, wait a minute, I thought we were supposed to be discussing children here, and why are we discussing money?
Maryann Petri: It’s really none of her business. She barely even asked my husband, who was sitting there, any questions. She really, basically only asked him where he worked or what he did, and what he did for a living. And then about two hours later my parents came back and then she left, and she did not interview them at all.
Barbara La Pointe: Maryann and Andrew, you guys can boot me later if I should know this, but I’m just still trying, I just wanted to confirm, how did CPS come into your home? So did your husband call them? Was it because your daughter left? Why was CPS there in your house?
Maryann Petri: And that’s what an attorney said to me.
Maryann Petri: An attorney said to me, “Who would call CPS on a kid that’s almost 17?” Yeah. I guess he did it because he did not want to pay child support, which wasn’t much, believe me. It was only 300 a month. This was not a staggering amount of child support.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s not a lot. Yeah, it’s a subjective thing, but child support is fairly low in North America overall.
Maryann Petri: However, what he really, really wanted, and why taking the kids was not enough, was that he wanted to turn the tables so that I would have to pay him child support in the amount of 1,000 a month on top of arrears.
Andrew Folkler: I guess then what was the outcome of that CPS visit?
Maryann Petri: The outcome was she left, and then she came back two days later to scream at me some more.
Maryann Petri: And then the weird part was I get a call from my counselor who says, “You have to be at my office on this date, time. Apparently, the caseworker wants to tell you you’re indicated, and she wants you to be in a safe place so you don’t commit suicide,” which she and I both had a good laugh over because we knew I wasn’t gonna do anything like that, and we knew this was gonna happen.
Maryann Petri: So we all went into the office. This was two weeks before Christmas. She came into my home mid-December, where she said it would take nine months to decide on a case. Well, she had it done within three weeks. So we sat there, and I did record it. I held up my cell phone, and I said, “I’m recording everyone.”
Maryann Petri: And then she said, “Well, I want to let you know you’re being indicated for emotional child abuse.” I said, “Well, we’ll see.” And she left the room, and I was kind of yelling at her. And she swung open the door, looked at my counselor and said, “That woman lives better than I do.”
Maryann Petri: She ran down the hall, and I said, “Have a Merry Christmas,” as she slammed the door.
Barbara La Pointe: So just to confirm and clarify, you’re a upstanding American citizen. You’re a fantastic mom. You have a professional occupation as a nurse. At times you were a psychiatric nurse. And then all of a sudden you have CPS in your life, and they’re accusing you of emotional child abuse? it might be hard to go back and touch base on how you feel, felt, but how did you feel when CPS knocked on your door or you’re in the office? What kind of emotions were emerging for you in that moment?
Maryann Petri: Yes, yes. And.
Maryann Petri: A parent is placed in so much shock and disbelief ‘cause it’s like, “Hey, I’ve only had one speeding ticket in my whole life.
Maryann Petri: I’ve been a good mother. There’s no reason any of this should be happening.” You go to correct your own child and they run and call CPS on you. Because several months earlier, the oldest and I were arguing, and things weren’t going her way, so she stated, “Well, I’m going to call a judge.”
Maryann Petri: And I thought, what was that?
Andrew Folkler: Do you think that a lot of those, you could say, sucker punches in a sense were part of that alienation programming from your ex?
Maryann Petri: Yes. Yes. But you don’t realize it ‘cause it’s so insidious. You’re going, “This can’t really...” You try to talk to this young person and, “What is going on?”
Maryann Petri: They’re not really giving you any answers. It’s really sad.
Barbara La Pointe: Did you even know what parental alienation was at that point in time?
Maryann Petri: When that happened, I did not know, but I found out about it within maybe three or four months, where I found myself in a family courtroom and the lies were coming out, and the silver bullet of, “She’s mentally ill.”
Maryann Petri: And you had the father crying crocodile tears on the stand that he just wants his children to be safe. And I’m thinking to myself, if anyone kept them safe, it was me. If anyone worked really super hard at keeping them safe, it was me.
Barbara La Pointe: Just to jump in again and confirm, at this point he’s trying to remove custody of your children?
Maryann Petri: Oh, he did very quickly, very well. He did that very well because the judge and his opposing attorney had worked together in a capacity in the courthouse for a number of years. So when they went to pick their attorney, they kind of knew who to pick, and I think because of the wife working in the courthouse.
Barbara La Pointe: Back to the beginning of the story.
Maryann Petri: And this judge was very... Also round and round in circles, just like the caseworker. He would talk about the pension fund, then he’s talking about custody, then he’s talking about child support, which is not in his realm. I was like, can we just stick to one topic?
Maryann Petri: Then he puts the caseworker on the stand, and she’s continuously calling me, the target parent, a perpetrator. The perpetrator said this. The perpetrator is fixated on that. And she must have used fixated I think 30 times. I think I counted it in the transcript, and I think we were up to almost 30 times.
Andrew Folkler: Sounds like just a lot of targeting language. And to, in a sense, paint that false image of you and pretty much tear away your reputation despite the fact that they never even got to know you in the first place.
Maryann Petri: Now, I had always heard that the judge will side with the CPS worker regardless of what anybody says.
Maryann Petri: They just err to the side of caution and side with the CPS worker. But there was more to it, as I had said, than that. It was really weird because when he announced that the father would take sole custody, the entourage, which was his ex-wife, and she had her whole family there, the grandparents were there.
Maryann Petri: There was whooping, clapping, and cheering in the courtroom that they won. And I looked at my lawyer and she looked at me ‘cause we couldn’t believe this was happening. And then as we were trying to leave, we wanted them to get out first, but in the hallway we saw the ex’s wife crying her eyes out in the hallway.
Maryann Petri: And my lawyer said, “What does she have to be crying about?” I said, “I don’t know.” And I didn’t get to say goodbye to my kids. It was my day to pick them up at school, and they were probably looking for my car. They were probably looking for me, and here the ex-wife shows up to pick them up and break the news to them that i’m sure she told them I was crazy and that they weren’t going to see me probably again. I don’t know what she told them.
Barbara La Pointe: How did you survive that, Maryann?
Maryann Petri: Luckily, I had a very good family doctor, and I told him, I said, “This is going on.” And also what was going on at the same time is when you’re indicated with emotional child abuse over here in the States, you’re not allowed to hold a job that deals with children.
Maryann Petri: So I couldn’t... I was placed on suspension by the ER ‘cause I couldn’t work there because kids come in there. And so I couldn’t work. I told my doctor, “I’ve got anxiety, high anxiety, depression. I wanna see this psychiatrist.” And he said, “Oh, that’s a good one. Go see him.” And he put me on an anti-anxiety and antidepressant, thank God, which helped get me through this.
Maryann Petri: And because what happened next was, what I didn’t know, was I get a letter in the mail from Domestic Relations saying that I owed so much money. I go, “What is this?” And so I called up the ladies down there at the desk in Domestic Relations, and they said, “Oh, him? Yeah, he’s the one. As soon as he got that judge’s order, the same day he came down here and filed for child support on you.”
Maryann Petri: And they were laughing. I said, “Oh, okay. I get it now.” And I said, “I don’t know how to pay this ‘cause I don’t have a job.” I said, “I’m on suspension until...” ‘Cause my lawyer had to file an adjudication in front of a CPS judge that to clear your name so you can go back to work So that took months and months.
Maryann Petri: And unbeknownst to me, in the meantime, they placed a second indication of emotional abuse, which I really didn’t know about until months, months later. Now, when I was exonerated of the first emotional abuse indication, which was June 5th, I was cleared and I called work and I said, “Hey, I can come back to work.
Maryann Petri: This is great.” And so within four days, I get a phone call from a caseworker who was very abrasive and nasty on the phone, stating right away that I was indicated for emotional abuse charges on the middle one. And I said, “What are the charges?” She said, “Well, you wouldn’t let him ride his bike around the block, and you took away his Xbox.”
Maryann Petri: And I’m thinking, “Wait a minute. They took the kids away in March. It’s still snowing. How could you ride your bike in the snow?” Second of all, I didn’t have the kid to take his Xbox away. I’m trying to think of when could I have taken away his Xbox.
Barbara La Pointe: So you still had a charge there. One was still had another charge.
Maryann Petri: Another charge yeah. So I had to call work back and tell them I couldn’t work.
Barbara La Pointe: Oh, my gosh. Plus, you lost custody of your kids, and now you had to pay child support to your husband.
Maryann Petri: Yes. And believe me, he’s vice president of a company. He did not need the money. He already destroyed me. Why taking the kids was not enough?
Maryann Petri: He’s already destroyed everything. So what happened was, see, in the state of Pennsylvania, I don’t know if you know what happened in the scandal of Penn State and Sandusky. I believe it was Commonwealth versus Sandusky. And that created that when you’re indicated with any child abuse charges, you cannot work in a job with children.
Maryann Petri: That’s what evolved, and it’s kind of odd that that happened around the time all this was happening. So the hospital said everyone has to have their fingerprints in, background check, and child abuse clearances in by November 23rd. And I’m thinking, “Well, I can get the other ones in, but I can’t get the child abuse clearance in,” because I didn’t have an adjudication with a CPS judge until December 4th.
Maryann Petri: So I was involuntarily terminated from my job as a nurse. Without unemployment, I may add, because I tried to get unemployment, but because there was an indication, you’re guilty until proven innocent. So you’re not gonna get your unemployment if they already think you’re guilty.
Barbara La Pointe: You’ve gone through a lot, Maryann a lot. I don’t even know how you were still standing up.
Maryann Petri: That’s i have very good close friends that I could talk to that knew the game. Some of them didn’t know the game, but they totally understood, and I kept my circle small as to who I talked to because people don’t get it.
Barbara La Pointe: So Maryann, what happened next? Because I know at one point you went to jail.
Maryann Petri: Oh, yes. See, this is where it gets... So get this. I’m under that second indication, and the judge, we went before the judge again, and he let me have the kids every other weekend, overnights, unsupervised. When he said that, the opposing side and their entourage flipped out screaming their heads off.
Maryann Petri: They were so angry. And we were like, “I’m under an emotional child abuse indication, and this judge is giving me unsupervised visits, overnight stays.” However, that made me a noncustodial parent and I still had to pay this child support. So to fast-forward to the prison thing, what happens is, you get called in for or support conferences, which turn into enforcement of child support conferences, which turn into enforcement hearings. And I had no idea. I found myself... And this is Holy Week of Easter, and I was in a box, like where the jury would sit, and I was with a bunch of guys. And the guy next to me said, “I don’t know why I’m here.
Maryann Petri: My child support’s all caught up. I don’t even know why I’m here.” I’m going, “I know why I’m here.” So at this point I owed, I don’t know, maybe 12 grand in arrears. And so there were also two men in the front. They were shackled at the waist and at the ankles. Like really, where are they gonna go?
Maryann Petri: And so I waited till 9:00. The judge, she was female, she came out in her, and I would have to say demonic flying robes, and she called my name first. And of course I’m sitting in the back, so I had to squeeze around these guys, and I touched each guy on the shoulder and I said, “God bless you. God bless you.”
Maryann Petri: And even the guys that were cuffed, “God bless you.” And I hope she heard me. But I stood there and she said, “If you can come up with $2,000, I won’t send you to...” She called it jail. “But if you don’t come up with the $2,000 in one month, I’m going to send you to jail for two months.” And I’m thinking to myself, “Okay.
Maryann Petri: My ex-husband at that point ran up to the rail, started yelling to the judge that I have been defiant in paying my child support when I had no job.
Barbara La Pointe: I guess it depends on where you’re sitting. Some people might feel 12,000 is a lot, some people might feel it’s a little bit. But you had three children?
Maryann Petri: Well, in the book it says four, and technically I truthfully had four kids. I did have a miscarriage, but I just did that to throw people off.
Barbara La Pointe: You had to pay child support for three kids, right?
Maryann Petri: Yeah.
Barbara La Pointe: So do you mind me asking how much you were ordered to pay a month? $1,000 or.
Maryann Petri: Yes, 1,000.
Maryann Petri: And then on top of that... and bear in mind, he was only paying 300, okay? Then what the judge did at that time when she was ordering this ridiculous amount, she also increased my arrears from 12,000 to 15,000, and this is called extortion. I’m going, “How did we go from 12,000, now I owe 15,000? Now I’m gonna end up going to...” However, remember that pension fund.
Maryann Petri: Remember that pension fund that CPS caseworker knew all about. Luckily, I had an attorney that fought that in Superior Court because the judge thought that the pension fund wasn’t worth anything. Well, it was. It was actually worth $2,200. That would’ve kept me out of jail had the ex paid it, but he just never did.
Andrew Folkler: I think it’s also important to note, especially within the US, you can’t default on child support payments, and so you can’t... And I don’t know if it’s the same in Canada, but most people within this atmosphere know that as common knowledge. But people, listeners who might not be in this kind of hurricane of a mess, you can’t default on child support payments.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s a good point, Andrew, and it is the same in Canada as well.
Barbara La Pointe: So if I didn’t know anything about this, and I didn’t know anything at all, to be honest with you, I would just... I would wanna ask, I don’t know if any of our audience feels this way, why is your husband doing this to you?
Barbara La Pointe: It just seems so cruel. At this point the system had taken over, but he seemed to really be cheerleading them on.
Maryann Petri: Well, in fact, the night before I had to go to that contempt hearing, I did email him and I said, “Look, call off the dogs. It’s not gonna be good for the kids if I go to prison.
Maryann Petri: It’s just not gonna be good for them.” I wouldn’t be doing this to you. And truthfully, I would never even dream of sending the ex to prison. And it is prison because that’s what it said on the wall as the bus drove by and I was in the paddy wagon with a bunch of guys. And yeah, so this is how people are treating each other all for the sake of the God almighty dollar.
Maryann Petri: And the thing that my counselor had pointed out was that it seems like it’s a vendetta. The child support judge really had it out for you in some weird way. She said she’s seen her act crazy before, but not this crazy. And she also said his attorney has something personal against you.
Maryann Petri: He doesn’t like you and he really wants you to, it’s just kinda weird how he’s going after you really in a very disturbing way. Which revealed itself after I got out of prison. So I was only in there for five days, thank God, ‘cause I got very sick in there. You cannot take a patient off benzodiazepines as it is life-threatening.
Maryann Petri: That’s a human rights violation to not get your medications in prison. It’s happening all over the world, not just me. And I was put in the general population where the ex told the kids that I would be playing tennis and knitting like Martha Stewart was, and Wolf of Wall Street. And it’s like, no, no, I was in the general population, people.
Barbara La Pointe: Were you afraid for your safety?
Maryann Petri: No. No, I wasn’t. Believe it or not, there were a lot of very spiritual, kind women in there, and they kept us away from the murderers. So you’d eat your lunch, and then you’d be put back in your cell. Then they’d let the murderers come out and let them eat, then they would go back to their cell.
Barbara La Pointe: Did you get to play tennis?
Maryann Petri: Oh, no. No. Actually, I was really disappointed with all the funding for prisons, that there wasn’t not even a sewing machine. Like, really?
Maryann Petri: You can’t make this stuff up. You cannot. In fact, there was one inmate, she was complaining about my ex’s attorney. She said, “He took my retainer fee and he represented me once, and then I tried calling him and he never returned my phone calls.” And I said, “You know what? That’s how he works.” I said, “I know the guy.
Maryann Petri: This is what he does.”
Barbara La Pointe: Maryann, I really agree with you. You can’t make this stuff up, and we can laugh about it now because it’s been years and some small parts are healed parts of your story. But is it true that you had some heart issues in prison?
Maryann Petri: Well, yeah, I was having chest pain.
Maryann Petri: I was sweating. I had back pain as well, and I went up to the nurse who was passing out everybody else’s pills, and I said, “Can I go to the ER? I’m having chest pain.” And the guard looked over and said, “We don’t do that here.” I’m thinking, “Dear God, don’t let me die in here.” And so what had also happened was I had started vomiting.
Maryann Petri: I really won’t go deep into that. That’s already in the book. But I got so sick I had to call my 72-year-old father and ask him for $2,000, which was called a purge amount. $2,000, and I told him how to do it, and, “Don’t leave the area till they fax it over to the prison, then come and get me.” And he did that and got into the car, and the first thing I said is, “Let’s go to McDonald’s.
Maryann Petri: I need some serious food.” Something that smelled good. Not with two hot dogs sitting in oatmeal. Seriously. Really? Yeah, and so then when I got out and my son said, “What happened?” I said, “Well, I just want...” Yeah, they had asked if I was playing tennis, and I said, “No, I was in the general population,”
Maryann Petri: And they were shocked. It’s like I hope they can see in time how much they have been lied to. Then months had gone on, and again, here we go with the support contempt hearings. More support contempt hearings. Trying to explain to the judge, I can’t... There’s no job I can get, would not be hired back as a nurse, and now my nursing license is revoked because I was so upset, scattered, I just couldn’t concentrate from all of this upheaval in our lives that my counselor said, “You were a safe nurse at one time, but with all this happening, I don’t think you’re safe right now.
Maryann Petri: So I’m gonna have the state pull your license.” I’m going, “I can’t work. What? Just a minimum hour, minimum wage hour job?” Well, the judge wasn’t happy with that. But when we went in for a support contempt conference, I was handing off all these papers to the conference officer, and the ex’s attorney showed up, and he showed up at the right time because I said, “Here’s the paper that says my nursing license has been revoked.”
Maryann Petri: His jaw dropped. He said, “I didn’t know that happened.” And I looked up at him and I said, “Right. And you know that paperwork I filed to the superior court? If that fails, we’re just gonna go over and do it again. I’m just gonna appeal again.” And so I just hand off all the paperwork, and the officer took my paperwork, and I got up and left.
Maryann Petri: So the attorney was right behind me. He was four paces behind me. He says, and I was so honored, he says to me, “I hate her. She argues like my ex-wife.” And I was like, “That’s the best compliment I have ever gotten in my life,” okay? Because she’s an awesome attorney. I’ve heard of his ex-wife. She’s awesome.
Maryann Petri: And so then the heart attack happened, and that scared the judge. She even told my ex to stop coming in for these contempt hearings, ‘cause she’s probably tired of him going on about it. And then Christmas happened. Two days after Christmas, I get in the mail from the Superior Court that I had won my case on the child support, because I had to have that reduced so she wouldn’t be sending me into prison every three months.
Maryann Petri: ‘Cause this would be going on as a revolving door, you see. So I told my husband, I said, “Well, we won, but we have to take it back to the lower court.” And I said, “I have to be honest, I can’t defend myself alone as a pro se. I’m not healthy and I’m still having chest pain.” So we hired a Supreme Court attorney, and she cost just as much as everybody else, but she was awesome.
Maryann Petri: She actually said to the judge when we got in there, she said to the judge, “You have to abide by what the Superior Court ruled.” And it was like total silence in that courtroom. And then every time his attorney opened his big, fat mouth, the judge would say, “Overruled.” And every time my attorney spoke, she was sustained.
Maryann Petri: I’d never seen anything like it, ever. And I just said, “We need to see what his W-2s are doing.” So the judge asked for those, and then he didn’t wanna hand them over, but he did. However, we had to wait for her order, which was, we got it, I think it was like a week and a half later, and my attorney called me.
Maryann Petri: She said, “I have never seen an order written so crazy like this. But now you owe $109 a month, with $9 in arrears.” I said, “Oh.” She said, “Really?” She said, “Honestly, I wanted it all wiped away. That’s what really should have happened.” That’s what she said that is her intention, that she wanted this judge to wipe it all away, ‘cause none of it should’ve happened to begin with.
Barbara La Pointe: You must have incurred quite an amount of legal fees, I would imagine, through this process.
Maryann Petri: Close to 45,000. Now, I know of people that have spent way more, but I knew when to start representing myself, whether I liked it or not. Whether I knew the laws or not, I did my best. But the heart attack was not something that was a normal heart attack.
Maryann Petri: The cardiologist said, “You’re thin, your cholesterols are perfect.” What had happened was my left anterior descending artery started to dissect, which means it starts ripping and opening up, and that’s very painful, I can tell you. But that only happens in cases of stress. So the cardiologist told me this was caused by stress.
Maryann Petri: “What was going on in your life?” I told him. He said that’s what caused this.
Barbara La Pointe: Makes sense to me that you went through an incredible amount of duress over a long period of time on so many fronts: emotional, financial, your kids. And now in this present moment, though, you’re quite a fierce advocate for family court reform, correct?
Maryann Petri: Yes. And I thought about reform, and then I thought it just should be completely abolished, and just take it back down to civil court. And these judges have to know that if parents are coming in to litigate and fight over the kids, they have to know that there is a person with a personality disorder that’s doing all the litigating.
Maryann Petri: And I actually proved that to the judge. I said, “He’s been pulling me in here more than I pulled him in here.” That’s a pattern. But bear in mind they were BFFs, so that wasn’t gonna work. So these judges have to discern that this is not normal, get down to the root of it, and end it within a month, and not drag out these court cases for six to eight months and messing with the kids.
Maryann Petri: It’s just gotta stop.
Barbara La Pointe: You were dragged to court a lot. So looking back now, would you say your ex is a high-conflict personality in your experience?
Maryann Petri: He is, I would say... Since I didn’t get to see his psych eval, ‘cause his psych eval was done by a CPS counselor. So that’s a conflict of interest.
Maryann Petri: He shouldn’t have been doing that. I had to pay 400 for a psychological evaluation, which came out pristine. There’s no reason... I was not a danger to my kids. But I don’t know what his says, but it’s probably all rainbows and unicorns. So he, in my opinion, if I was gonna diagnose anyone, and I’m not a psychiatrist and I’m not a psychologist, but EAD, explosive anger disorder, oppositional defiant, borderline personality disorder, and I would have to say malignant narcissism.
Maryann Petri: If I was gonna diagnose, that’s probably what I would say. And the thing was, it just still didn’t end, even though I was cleared of all this, and I went to the DA because years ago... Years ago, after they were shortly married thereafter, she had called me up. The ex’s wife had called me up, and she we were talking on the phone, and then she says, “I know a lot of people in the courthouse, and I’m friends with all the judges.” And I’m thinking, I don’t know what to think about that. Two months later, they’re on my front porch over some, I don’t know what we were arguing about, flower pots. I think that’s what it was.
Maryann Petri: But she said, “I know a lot of people in the courthouse, and I’m friends with all the judges.” So years later, I go to the DA, and I tell him this, and he said, “Well, did you tell her boss?” I said, “Well, I didn’t know what to think of it at the time,” ‘cause I had so much going on. He said, “Well, her boss’s name is so-and-so.
Maryann Petri: Why don’t you write him a letter?” So I did. Then I go to pick up my kids, and the one was crying, saying, “If she loses her job, we’re gonna lose the house.” And it’s like, well, they wanted us to lose our house. That’s all I could respond. I said, “That’s not gonna happen. That’s just not gonna happen.”
Maryann Petri: But that’s what... he just used the kids. He just used them.
Andrew Folkler: And leading up to where things are at now, how are things now considering we’re getting close to that one-hour mark?
Maryann Petri: Okay. Well, since I had been through all of this, I contacted Human Services, and I said, “Do I have a lawsuit?
Maryann Petri: Can I sue?” And the guy said, “Send me your paperwork.” I did. He said, “Yes. Go ahead.” So I filed it in the federal court, which furthermore upset the other kid. The youngest will speak to me, but the other two won’t. And the middle one got upset. He’s very easy to manipulate, so that’s how he was gotten by the father and the stepmother.
Maryann Petri: Because he had told me himself that they were constantly badmouthing me over there at the house. So I had to do this because I have to hold these people accountable. If I don’t hold them accountable, that means they’re gonna go down the street and do that to someone else. And as a mandated reporter, as I was as a nurse, I am going to report this.
Maryann Petri: And what has happened is the federal court judge just didn’t read the exhibits. He even said he didn’t read the exhibits, and he ruled them as irrelevant. Maybe he should have read them, because now we’re in the appellate court. So they have all the paperwork, it’s in their hands, and I pray that those judges will do the right thing.
Andrew Folkler: We’ll definitely keep tabs on that, ‘cause I think it would definitely be really good to bring you back on board again and discuss more about that advancement in that case.
Andrew Folkler: Because like you said, I think family court reform or even just dismantling it altogether that won’t happen without accountability.
Andrew Folkler: And I think that’s one thing that happens up to a lot of people who are victims of family court is they’ve been beaten down so much, they’ve been hurt by their ex, by family court, their attorneys, and everyone else who usually just doesn’t quite understand what’s going on and take everything at face value.
Andrew Folkler: And it gets to the point where they allow their voice to be erased or silenced.
Maryann Petri: Right, and it’s... I’m gonna keep going with this as far as I can with this. And I know they had talked about sanctioning me, monetary sanctions. Like, well, if you wanna, I don’t know, monetary sanction me, all I have is $14 in my checking account.
Maryann Petri: So, can’t help you there. But I’m the wounded victim here. They are not. They have to be held accountable.
Barbara La Pointe: Maryann, given everything you’ve gone through in family court, how many years of your life have you spent doing this in total?
Maryann Petri: I would say since 2012. My math is super bad.
Andrew Folkler: It’s getting close to 10 years. We’re halfway through 2021 now, or a little bit more than halfway through 2021. I think we’re getting pretty close to 10 years now. And given that the divorce journey doesn’t really start once the papers are filed, I think it starts even before.
Andrew Folkler: I think it’s safe to round it up to 10 years.
Maryann Petri: Right. And what I didn’t know also was that came out in the transcript as I was reading it is they had been making calls to CPS even as far as 2011, 2012. But the calls were being blown off. They weren’t taking the calls seriously. Probably until they found the right case worker that would do the job.
Barbara La Pointe: I think what you’ve gone through with CPS is incredibly relevant because there’s thousands and thousands of parents in the USA that face CPS and have some pretty awful outcomes with CPS and the corruptness of CPS.
Maryann Petri: What I’m grateful for is the letter my attorney wrote that said, “I do believe you were unfairly targeted by CPS.”
Barbara La Pointe: That’s significant so you must have some closing advice for parents around CPS, around family court reform. What would be some advice or counsel that you’d wanna share or top reform tips for...
Maryann Petri: Okay, do not let them in.
Maryann Petri: If a CPS caseworker calls you and says, “I wanna come over at 3:00,” I’d say, “No, I’m going to call an attorney.” That should be your answer. I couldn’t afford it. I’ll be honest with you. I was racking up charge cards. Yeah, we’re talking 8,000 on a charge card.
Maryann Petri: But it helped me get exonerated from two emotional abuse indications, so at least I’m not lumped in with a bunch of child molesters and child abusers, things like that. You gotta do what you have to do, but do not let them in your house.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay, don’t let them in. Call your attorney. Do you have any other advice with respect to CPS?
Maryann Petri: Let your attorney handle them.
Maryann Petri: If I could do it over again, that’s what I would’ve done.
Barbara La Pointe: I think that those are three powerful, powerful tips for people dealing with CPS. You’ve just gone through so much with family court, and you advocate for family court reform. So do you have something to say about family court reform, things you’d like to see in terms of actual reform or tips for others dealing with family court? Whatever you wanna throw out there.
Maryann Petri: Okay. If we can’t abolish it, put video cameras in there and tamper-proof mics, and that way this can be pulled up if there’s an appeal so those judges can see how those judges behaved. Things can be pulled up. And they also need to see what’s going on in the pews in the back, like the whooping, clapping, and cheering.
Maryann Petri: That’s not normal. It’s not normal behavior, and an attorney told me that. So we’ve got to at least do that. We are and should be allowed to have juries. And I was just told by a guest that in some states you can request a jury if you’re gonna get your kids taken away. But those are in different states.
Maryann Petri: I don’t know the laws of those states.
Barbara La Pointe: But just generally speaking?
Maryann Petri: Yes.
Andrew Folkler: And that’s the tough part given there’s 50 different ways depending on where you live geographically in the United States. State laws do differ a great deal. So I imagine that would pose a lot of difficulty.
Andrew Folkler: And so really definitely make sure whoever’s listening, if you’re caught in this kind of situation, do as much research as you can on your state laws.
Barbara La Pointe: Good point.
Andrew Folkler: And likewise for Canada and anywhere else in the world really.
Maryann Petri: Yeah, because they’re... when I heard that you could have a jury, it’s like, “Gee, I didn’t know that as a pro se litigant.”
Maryann Petri: Because all I’ve ever known is family court and no one else, no one’s allowed in there except whoever. He took an entourage of 12 people. I just had my parents. My friends worked full time. Who else was... Who could I get in there to be a court watcher?
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, you must clearly must have been overwhelmed with things to do and all of the pressure and what was at stake.
Maryann Petri: Oh, yeah, so much at stake. So much lost, time lost.
Barbara La Pointe: Any parting advice for parents that are suffering from parental alienation, Maryann? You know a lot about it.
Maryann Petri: Well, get a good counselor. If you find one you don’t like, keep searching for the right one. Just ‘cause one counselor didn’t work, doesn’t mean the other one won’t.
Maryann Petri: Just find someone that you can totally mesh with, that gets it and understands it. And because you need someone to talk to if you don’t have friends that don’t understand this.
Andrew Folkler: Maryann, if listeners wanted to reach out to you or learn more about you, what would be the best way for them to do so?
Maryann Petri: They can contact me on dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com.
Andrew Folkler: Right on. And just as a quick reminder, you’re also the host of Slam the Gavel podcast. Both Barbara and I have been featured on it, and I think you pump out a lot more episodes than we do. But it’s definitely a good great resource for any of the listeners who are watching this video.
Andrew Folkler: But once again, everyone, that’s all we have time for today. Thank you for taking the time to be with us. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our channel either on YouTube or to our podcast through the various podcasting platforms. Don’t forget, we summarize everything that we talked about in a downloadable document below.
Andrew Folkler: It’ll be on Barbara’s website at barbaralapointe.com/podcast. And this will help you and your loved ones deal with these challenges, trauma and high conflict. If listeners wanted to reach out to you, what would be the best way for them to do so?
Barbara La Pointe: Barbara@barbaralapointe.com...
Andrew Folkler: Right on. So definitely give her an email if you need to reach out to her, especially if you need counseling during these kind of high conflict divorce situations.
Andrew Folkler: If you wanna ask me anything, you’re free to email me at startnow@andrewfolkler.com. As always, thank you for taking the time to be with us, everyone, at the Broken Families podcast, where we discuss and help you find solutions to divorce, parental alienation and high conflict relationships.
Andrew Folkler: Have a wonderful day, everyone.
Maryann Petri: Thank you...
Barbara La Pointe: Maryann.