In this episode, Barbara and Andrew talk about how parental alienation shapes a child's identity, drawing on Andrew's own experience.
Note: This podcast was originally hosted on Barbara La Pointe’s website, which has since gone offline. I’ve reposted the episodes here so people still have access to the materials.
Transcript
Andrew Folkler: Welcome everyone to another episode of Broken Families, where we discuss and host conversations on divorce, parental alienation, and high-conflict relationships. My name is Andrew Folkler.
Barbara La Pointe: And I’m Barbara La Pointe. Great to be here with you, Andrew.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. Definitely. It’s always awesome doing these podcasts with you.
Andrew Folkler: So today we’re going to talk about alienation, and we’re gonna talk about how alienation impacts the child. This is something that we get a lot of questions about, something that a lot of parents are just wondering what their child is going through on the other side. What are they going through? What kind of abuses are they going through?
Andrew Folkler: And how is it possible that they are just being twisted into being this hurt young child? So in that respect, before we get started, there were a couple disclaimers we wanted to throw out there before we really get deep into this because this is an emotional episode. This is a very emotional topic.
Andrew Folkler: First and foremost, as you listen to this episode, be sure to self-regulate. Be sure to work through your emotions, whether that’s through journaling, with a coach, or with a good support network or a support group. That is because you don’t wanna listen to this episode and be like, “Oh, no, I need to i know that I know what my kids are going through. I need to go out and talk to them,” or, “I need to do something rash.” And as always, we encourage more thoughtful, more focused thinking as far as how you interact with your alienated child. So you don’t wanna be making any quick, fast, emotional reactions based on this episode.
Andrew Folkler: So make sure, take some time, listen to it, think about it, and work through those emotions. Also, the second disclaimer we wanna put out there is the questions that Barbara’s gonna be throwing at me, a lot of it’s gonna be based on my own experiences. This does not mean that every child goes through this.
Andrew Folkler: This does not mean that my experiences are universal. At the same time, your child might go through something that I’ve never been through before. So everyone’s gonna react differently. We’re all different people. And also keep in mind that I’m speaking from a very self-aware point of view.
Andrew Folkler: Sometimes the child will experience something similar, but they’re not self-aware, and so it’s gonna be a subconscious reaction instead of a conscious reaction. So without further ado, Barbara, let’s get started.
Barbara La Pointe: Okay. Well said, Andrew. If I could just back up and just support you in what you just said, that just invite our audience to take what serves them and leave the rest.
Barbara La Pointe: And also an invitation to just sit with this information for a few days or a few weeks to allow it to process and integrate before you act upon it. And that might be very helpful as well. So I think we were gonna start our line of questioning with how does parental alienation impact a child’s identity?
Barbara La Pointe: Before I totally land that question on your lap, Andrew, I’ll just preface by saying that a child’s identity is formed, of course, throughout their life. But when they’re very, very young, they’re attached to their parents, primarily their mother, and there is no separation of identity, ‘cause they’re bonded with mom or dad.
Barbara La Pointe: So that’s just something to keep in mind, and it might be neat as we do this podcast to view it with this overarching lens of the past and the future and just the whole timeline that faces a child going through alienation. Rather than one moment, just the whole timeline. ‘Cause it’s really a early trauma and that can turn into a generational trauma.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. So the question is definitely a very big one. How does alienation impact a child’s identity? And I wanna start off by saying that in a normal, healthy relationship between two people, you have two different identities interacting with each other. And even in an intimate relationship, your partner wouldn’t be an extension of yourself.
Andrew Folkler: They are their own person. And likewise, in a healthy relationship with a child, the child will be developing their own identity, and they are not in any way an extension of the parent. At least beyond that initial attachment period that Barbara was talking about. So what ends up happening with the child during the alienation process is the opposite.
Andrew Folkler: They are forced to adopt an identity that is molded by the alienating parent. And what I mean by this is that they have explicit set of rules that they have to follow, an explicit set of behaviors they have to follow. And the moment they stop following those behaviors, it leads to punishment.
Andrew Folkler: It leads to a lot of yelling, a lot of anger. It can lead to forms of abuse. It really does depend on that dynamic behind the relationship. So for starters, it really does come down to what identity is being molded for them. And this can influence their behavior on all fronts. It influences their reactions and how they interact with the erased parent.
Andrew Folkler: It influences their relationships. It influences how they do in school. I’ve been speaking very broadly just because there’s so many different ways that this could pan out. Now, to zoom in a little bit more and show you what I’m talking about, let’s just say for the example, the alienating parent is someone who has a strong sense of value in their vanity.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe they’re somebody who wants to be seen as the best business person, the best parent, the best coach, the best anything. What ends up happening is that vanity is projected onto the child. Now, the child is being an extension of that parent. If the child is not the best, then that child impacts the vanity of the alienating parent.
Andrew Folkler: So say, for example, that child is an athlete. They need to be the best athlete, otherwise they’re going to get a lot of pressure and a lot of projected emotion from that vain, alienating parent. Say they’re a student. They have to be a top-tier student, otherwise one A-minus, it’s not good enough.
Andrew Folkler: They’re gonna get in a lot of trouble. They have to push forward and be the best of the best. And this will translate across everything they do. It creates this sense of performance anxiety. They have to be an overachiever. They have to be as good as they can, or beyond as good as they can because the bar keeps raising.
Andrew Folkler: They could be a student that gets 100%, and they’re gonna be told, “Yeah, but it could’ve been better.” And it will crush their confidence because their confidence is rooted in being the best. So that’s just one example through vanity. Maybe your alienating parent is somebody who’s invasive.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe they want to dive in and just read all their personal stuff, read their texts, read their emails, read everything that they’re doing. Maybe they don’t allow them to have personal time or personal space. And you’ll end up having one of two reactions. Either your child is going to be molded into somebody who allows themself to never have boundaries, and so they just allow someone to pretty much invade their life and invade their privacy, and likewise subsequently have no sense of privacy.
Andrew Folkler: Or they will adopt that behavior of being invasive to other people.
Barbara La Pointe: So let’s just maybe just slow it down a bit here, ‘cause of what you’re describing to me almost sounds like control over a child. Like the reading of the diary. To me, everything you just said sounds like a lot of coercive control.
Andrew Folkler: It absolutely is. Absolutely is a form of control. And because the identity of the child has to be in line with the goals and ambitions of the alienating parent. If the alienating parent can’t control their identity, then what’s to say that the child doesn’t start talking to the erased parent?
Andrew Folkler: What’s to say that the child doesn’t, in a sense, fuse with the alienating parent? In order to mitigate the tension, they have to control everything. And instead of recognizing that the child is their own person, the child is going to grow up into their own personality and their own likes and dislikes, they’re only going to allow very superficial disagreements.
Andrew Folkler: But fundamentally, they want all those values that they carry within themselves, they want that projected onto the child so that the child will, in a sense, bolster the alienating parent in anything they do.
Barbara La Pointe: So while all of this is going on with the alienated parent and the child, what’s happening with the other parent?
Andrew Folkler: So with the other parent, they don’t see all this happening, and what they get is that front page picture of what’s going on. So they see, in a sense, a miniature version of the alienating parent in this child. And the erased parent’s like, “Who is this person? How did you go from the sweet, young, and innocent child that I remember into this invasive person, this angry person, this person who’s very spiteful?”
Andrew Folkler: And as an erased parent, you know that none of these emotions were natural to them. None of these feelings and thoughts that they’re having is something that they came up with. It was, in a sense, spoon-fed to their mind over and over again until it became the only thing that they know.
Andrew Folkler: Repetition is the most powerful form of brainwashing, and we see this all across the world, whether it’s in advertising or even in abuse. And so the child is just swallowing all this poison that’s being fed to them by the alienating parent. And it gets to a point, you are what you eat, and that goes for us mentally as well.
Andrew Folkler: If you are consuming a ton of mental garbage, you’re going to think mental garbage, and that’s what is happening to the child. The erased parent sees this, and there’s this knee-jerk reaction of, “Oh my God, is this really how they’re treating you? I can’t believe it.” That’s when they, in a sense, are goaded into a fight with the child because the child thinks they’re acting on their own accord without even realizing that they are acting out a set of behaviors that were planted by the alienating parent.
Barbara La Pointe: Good point, ‘cause I think just when we’re having this conversation we’re doing it with the lens that parental alienation is a form of child abuse or early childhood trauma. And so when children go through it at a younger age, they start erecting defense systems that later they’ll be aware of or not aware of.
Barbara La Pointe: So I imagine that other parent, the erased parent, probably feels out of control.
Andrew Folkler: Because they’re not interacting with the true form of their child. They’re interacting with, you could say, a more juvenile form of their ex, in a sense. Because their ex has planted these ideas into the child, and now the child is just a talking puppet for the alienating parent.
Andrew Folkler: And so when they meet on that level, because the alienating parent has already planted out what you’re gonna say as the erased parent, how you’re gonna act, they’ve got it mapped out like clockwork. It’s just this game of verbal chess. Whatever move you make, they’ve got a counter-move against you already.
Andrew Folkler: And some of it is not rooted in logic. A lot of it is just rooted in emotion. It’s rooted in the “Why don’t you act this way? Why don’t you do these things for me?” Without any sense of empathy or regard for anyone else, especially the erased parent.
Barbara La Pointe: ‘Cause I think ultimately, children don’t wanna disappoint their parents.
Barbara La Pointe: So when you were describing that one alienating parent with her vanity, for example, and that sounded to me very much like a narcissistic personality, where reputation is everything, and the control, and just they have to be the best and look the best, and all of that. That’s highly in alignment with some of the dominant traits of a narcissist.
Andrew Folkler: It absolutely is. And you are on the dot with the idea of wanting to please the alienating parent. Because the alienating parent has established this sense of what is right and what is wrong, and their identity is implanted into the child as well. So when the child acts in line with the wishes and demands of the alienating parent, they are rewarded for that, and they feel valued.
Andrew Folkler: They feel validated, because that seems to be the only way they can get some sense of validation from their alienating parent. They’re chasing this feeling, hoping to be good enough for their alienating parent. Because in their minds, part of that process of alienation is being planted the idea that the other parent didn’t think they were good enough.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s actually something I come across quite commonly when I’m speaking to women. I mostly speak to women that are experiencing alienation, that their children are just these incredible little super beings. One girl I know, she was actually talking to the senator in the United States, but her narcissistic, alienated father just couldn’t acknowledge her, couldn’t say, “Great job,” couldn’t fulfill her self-esteem.
Barbara La Pointe: And so no matter what these kids do, it’s just not enough because they almost become like invisible children if they’re not in alignment with whatever the program is of that alienating parent. And it’s really sad because children are, of course, building up this core. They’re building up their core self, and part of that core self is their self-esteem.
Barbara La Pointe: And so it’s putting holes in their self-esteem, pretty significant ones.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. And one thing to take note of is behind the scenes, that narcissistic parent might be going out telling all their business friends, “Yeah, my daughter just talked to the senator and it was nothing. She’s really good at all these things.”
Andrew Folkler: And that’s where any praise that should be going to the daughter or the child is actually going into bragging and boasting amongst their circle to help elevate the alienating parent or the narcissistic parent. And that’s the only time they will speak positively about the experience is when other people are watching.
Barbara La Pointe: Exactly. Exactly. And that’s really common, and it really is really hurtful and wounding to someone who’s conscious and aware and can see it. And the child feels it. They might not process it till later, but their inner child definitely observes that and takes that in. They know.
Barbara La Pointe: I mean, we’re talking about children’s identities and children being separate, ‘cause at the end of the day, we don’t own our children. But at the same time, there’s a reality that we’re connected to our children, and energy is flowing from us to them all through the generational line.
Barbara La Pointe: So that’s another way to look at it, I guess.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. It’s definitely a very difficult process because later in life the child will have to start to establish their own identity, and that’s when you get this, in a sense, an identity crisis within them. Because as they grow older, they want to assert themselves and have their sense of freedom, but it’s different from the identity that was prescribed to them early on.
Andrew Folkler: And this is where oftentimes you’ll hear in the alienation community, “Oh, sometime in the future your children will come back.” And it’s a very triggering thing to hear for a lot of parents because they say, “Oh, yeah? When? When is this gonna happen? Give me a time and a date.
Andrew Folkler: Show me the proof.” And totally understand that. But the premise behind that is that when a child starts to develop their own identity, that’s when they start to realize that they’re not being allowed to be anything except what serves the alienating parent. Now, this doesn’t happen universally.
Andrew Folkler: It doesn’t happen at a magical age. There’s no magic number, unfortunately. And some kids never develop an identity of their own, and I speak that from experience. So there’s a lot of possibilities across an entire spectrum of identity that a child can grow into. But at least to my understanding as far as why a child starts to see through the lies of the alienating parent, that only really begins when their identity within themselves speaks truths that their fake identity, the prescribed identity can’t speak for.
Andrew Folkler: Where they want to become somebody on their terms, on their rules and values instead of what they’re being expected to be.
Barbara La Pointe: That critical at times where they start to question that. I mean, ‘cause we as human beings, children, all human beings, we’re even more than our identity.
Barbara La Pointe: We’re our soul. And so this type of child abuse is even puncturing holes in their soul, I would put forward. And when that higher soul comes down to take a look and face that identity that is composed of their who am I, their self-esteem, so on and so forth, those questions are gonna come up that you were just mentioning.
Barbara La Pointe: And that’s why this form of child abuse is so sad because ultimately, as children, we wanna receive as much love as we can, unconditional positive regard from our parents, unconditional love from our mom and our dad. And if we have an alienated parent or a high conflict between mom and dad, then we’re not receiving as much love as we possibly can when we’re a child.
Barbara La Pointe: And so the ramifications of that are when we grow up questioning our identity or whatever, we often feel like the world can’t give us enough, or we can’t get what we need. We can’t take care of ourselves. We can’t make enough money because we originally were caught up in abuse where we didn’t get the love that we needed.
Barbara La Pointe: So the consequences of that and how these children’s lives unfold are very serious.
Barbara La Pointe: Right? And it’s just if you don’t get enough love from mom and dad because they’re in a high conflict divorce or in a power struggle over you, and when you get older and you can’t find enough love in the world, and you’ve gotta work your way backwards.
Barbara La Pointe: And that is one reason why I find parental alienation as a form of child abuse soaring. It’s sad.
Barbara La Pointe: ‘Cause we only have one childhood.
Barbara La Pointe: So, and of course, this is an emotionally charged issue for all of us. But children face the most emotions. So one question we wanted to talk about was what kind of emotions do children endure or have to process during parental alienation?
Andrew Folkler: Okay. So during the initial split of the family, there’s a whole slew of emotions: fear, loss, and anger and frustration. Some of those emotions are also self-directed. Maybe they think that they played a part in the splitting of the family. Obviously, this does depend on how old the child is.
Andrew Folkler: The children at a younger age are gonna fear more for their safety. Children at a teenage level are going to start to look for someone to blame. It really does depend on their age, of course, but some of the common emotions that we can observe in alienated children are namely fear, anger, and grief. I would start with those three, and then you can start to expand upon that and see what those emotions spiraling into as far as behaviors go.
Andrew Folkler: So with fear, one of the big things that you’re going to see is there’s a fear of safety, a fear of rejection, a fear of being not good enough. And all these fears are compounding into emotionally charged responses. So when a parent starts to question the behavior of the alienated child, then they’re masking all this fear with anger.
Andrew Folkler: They’re projecting out these angers, “Oh, you never treat me good enough. You don’t love me. You’re only my egg donor. You’re only my sperm donor.” They’re gonna throw out all these nonsensical statements at you to provoke you because they’re trying to convey that they’re terrified.
Andrew Folkler: They’re terrified of the narrative that you, as the erased parent, don’t care about them. They’re terrified that the only stability in life they can hold onto is in control of the alienating parent, and they’re terrified that if they engage into a relationship with you, it will bring back the instability from the initial split-up.
Barbara La Pointe: And would they be afraid that they would lose that alienating parent’s love?
Andrew Folkler: Oh, absolutely. And they’re terrified of losing that as well. The thing is, part of the narrative that they’ve been spoon-fed over and over again is that the erased parent doesn’t care, that the erased parent is, in a sense, completely independent of their relationship with the alienated child.
Andrew Folkler: Now, we know that’s not true. We know that the erased parent wants everything they can to watch this child grow. But the thing is, like we said in the beginning of this episode, repetition is one of the most powerful forms of brainwashing, and they will not be able to see that truth until they hear it and feel it and see it over and over and over again.
Andrew Folkler: They need to be told that several times to challenge the truth that has been, in a sense, etched in stone in their brain. So that is why they’re so scared, they’re so afraid. And the only way they can protect themselves is by being angry. If you think about it, anger is a very emotionally and energetically draining emotion.
Andrew Folkler: It’s something you have to put a lot of energy to. You have to, in a sense, throw all the guck at somebody, and you’re trying to intimidate that other person to leave you alone, to go away, and to not be around you.
Barbara La Pointe: Intimidating the erased parent.
Andrew Folkler: And so what happens when that intimidation doesn’t work?
Andrew Folkler: Well, it does dependent on the erased parent and how they’re reacting, but what ends up happening is either they will turn up the anger, turn up the frustration, turn up the intensity of that emotion until they reach a breaking point within themselves where they can’t take it no more. So in this instance, you got your alienated child throwing more and more fire at you.
Andrew Folkler: If you show that you’re fireproof, and you’re stoic, and you’re just letting them speak their emotions, then they’re going to realize that the anger doesn’t work on you. And then either they will break down those defenses into a sense of grief and loss and be a bit more open and intimate with you, or they will, in a sense, retreat away because they don’t want you to see that they’re so broken on the inside.
Andrew Folkler: It really does depend on how close a relationship you have with a child, but beyond the anger is fear, and beyond the fear is loss.
Barbara La Pointe: Wow, that’s really profound. I mean, through the process of parental alienation, we’re really forcing kids to live in their anger. And how many adults do we see as we walk around in our world just living in anger and projecting anger and living in anger and fear?
Barbara La Pointe: And that’s a negative outcome for parental alienation, probably the opposite of what a loving parent would really want for their children.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. Now, in my personal case, there was one other emotion, and that’s only because my case reached an advanced enough level where I didn’t react with anger first, I reacted with apathy.
Andrew Folkler: And so you could think of that as in an advanced case it would be apathy first, then anger, fear, and loss. Apathy because, well, if you care about this other person, then again, you’re showing fear of building a connection. But apathy is a much more hurtful emotion because you’re conveying to the other person, “I don’t even give you the time of day.
Andrew Folkler: I don’t even give you the slightest bit of emotional connection.” Even if it was anger, at least you have some sort of emotional connection. But to just stonewall and give nothing and be a complete robot that is a stage that I personally reached with my mother. And when it’s challenged, that’s when apathy will turn into anger.
Andrew Folkler: But at that point, apathy is the easier way for the child to deal with this alienation process. Simply because it’s easier to not feel anything and pretend the feelings don’t exist than it is to sit and be angry all the time. ‘Cause when you’re angry, your eyebrows are scrunched, it takes up so much energy.
Andrew Folkler: And then mentally, you start to feel like this emotional fatigue, and then you start, in a sense, burning out. So how do you deal with that? You put those emotions in a bottle, you put it on the shelf, and you ignore it and let it ferment. And that’s what a lot of these children are doing, and that’s what I did as an individual.
Barbara La Pointe: Right. And what are some of the ways that that impacted your life, bottling up apathy- suppressing your emotions?
Andrew Folkler: It’s harder to tell, but I am somebody who’s very methodical and very logical in thinking. I grew up believing that emotions were a hindrance to our lives, and I grew up believing that to be emotional means to be weak, and I made that association very early on in my life.
Andrew Folkler: And now this hurts me in multiple ways. Part of it, in the biggest way, is that I was losing out on emotional connection with anyone, simply because if I was allowing myself to believe that emotions were a form of weakness instead of a form of establishing connection, I would fall into these patterns of behaviors where I was always distant.
Andrew Folkler: I could talk about history and trauma and past experiences, but I would do it without emotion. And you might think, “How is that even possible?” And it is. And so here’s how I would do it. If I wanted someone to go away, I would bring up a very conflicting trauma that somebody would think about it, emotionally process and say, “Oh my God, I can’t believe you went through that.
Andrew Folkler: That sounds so horrible.” And then they feel awkward just being in your presence because that’s the only thing they’re thinking about. Now, subconsciously this is not something that... Subconsciously this is the intention. Consciously thinking, this wasn’t something I would think about. It wasn’t like, “Okay, I’m just gonna drop this basket full of trauma on someone’s feet and make them freak out so they’ll leave me alone.”
Andrew Folkler: No, but it was a easy way to get people to leave you alone because people would feel like the moment they talk to you, they’re afraid that they’re going to, in a sense, either bring out that trauma or they’re going to have to hear more about it and feel responsible for it. It’s a very ugly feeling.
Andrew Folkler: So part of that was just falling into a line of behaviors where I was creating emotional distance from people. So if you create emotional distance, you don’t have to feel emotional, and then you can feel like life is going as you should. And that was a very big mistake of my life because I remember there was a time where I was in this process of rigorous self work and trying to figure out where my faults were, and I remember always feeling like I was just kinda drowning.
Andrew Folkler: I was just going through life like I was in the middle of the giant ocean, and I was just trying to find things to hold onto. And through a lot of meditation and a lot of thought and a lot of personal work and reading books and a few other things, I started to recognize that that drowning feeling was that I was drowning in my own emotions because I was ignoring them so long and for so much that everything was always above head level and I was just trying to kick my way up and stay above the surface and just get through life.
Andrew Folkler: And it wasn’t until I made that recognition, it wasn’t until I experienced that, that I was able to realize that emotions have a purpose in our life, and that emotions are there not because it makes us weaker, but in fact it strengthens our connection to other people.
Barbara La Pointe: Yeah, emotions are everything.
Barbara La Pointe: They’re our navigation system through the world. They’re our radar system. Emotions are power. They’re our energy in motion. But back to what you were saying, when you were saying you were emotionally disconnected from others because of the original disconnection with your mom, right?
Barbara La Pointe: If you can’t receive love from your mom and be deeply connected to her, you can’t ultimately deeply connect with another human being later on, and I think we just keep underscoring that point. But i’m so glad to hear that you processed all of those emotions, because so many of us don’t, and we’re not taught how to, and we’re just walking around like human bombs projecting out our anger and living in our fear, and all of that blocks our potential.
Barbara La Pointe: So I’m curious, when you became connected back with your mom, how did your emotional connections with others change?
Andrew Folkler: I think it was a very slow process. I won’t say that once I reconnected with my mom, that’s when everything changed. It was a very slow process of learning, in a sense relearning, behaviors that I should have learned at a younger age.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe other people who grew up in better homes would have 20, 25 years of experience working through their emotions, and you could say that I was just born trying to learn at all this. And through that process, I used a lot of resources. I used a lot of books. I used a lot of, especially books on psychology.
Andrew Folkler: I would try and be more involved with my friends. There were a lot of moments in my life, even now, where I would recognize that I wasn’t mentally present in the moment. So what I mean by this is I could be having a mundane conversation with a friend and I’m just parroting whatever my friend is saying, maybe mirroring it, just so that I don’t have to be actively involved in the conversation while I mentally think about something else.
Andrew Folkler: And so this mental multitasking that I would develop and that I’ve developed across the years, and I still do, would mean that I’m not present. It’s almost like somebody is playing squash by themself. They could just bounce their ideas off of me, and it’d bounce right back to them, and they feel like they’re getting a decent conversation out of it, but I’m not actually there.
Andrew Folkler: It’s not a game of tennis where we’re bouncing a ball back and forth. You’re just bouncing it off of a stone wall. And so in that instance, I had to recognize these moments and say, “Hold on a moment. I’m actually not mentally here, and I should be. I should give this person my time and my full attention,” because, one, it’s a point of respect, it’s a point of connection, and it will give me the opportunity to recognize the more subtle nuances of building a relationship with somebody, whether that’s as friends, that’s intimate, or even just between myself and my mother.
Andrew Folkler: And when I was able to do that, even on a smaller scale, and in a more, you could say, immature or underdeveloped scale, I was able to at least unlearn some of the mistakes I was making, one of the big ones being not being mentally present.
Barbara La Pointe: And so what do you get that’s even more meaningful when you’re mentally present?
Andrew Folkler: There definitely is an emotional element of it. For example, when I’m not mentally present, I’m more apathetic to what’s happened. Somebody could be excited about something, and I would mirror that excitement just enough so that they feel good about themselves, but I wouldn’t feel that excitement that they’re feeling, if that makes sense.
Andrew Folkler: And so what would end up happening, they’re bouncing their ideas off of me, like playing squash by yourself, and instead of me being there and sharing an experience with somebody, I would be just pretty much mirroring that energy back and thinking about things that I thought were more important.
Andrew Folkler: And so instead of that, instead of engaging in that kind of behavior, I would try and focus more on being mentally present, and then I feel their emotions, I feel the things that they’re feeling, and I understand why they are the kind of person that they are. And it’s almost like you’re being allowed to see through the eyes of another person just by experiencing those emotions that they are experiencing.
Andrew Folkler: And in that regard, you feel more connected with a person, and feel more open to share experiences that will resonate with them. Not in the sense like how I described earlier, where you’re just taking this big bucket of trauma and dropping it on their feet. Instead, it’s more of a relational thing, where maybe that’s not something I need to share about that you feel, I feel insecure about.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe it’s the need to be the best at something. Or maybe it’s that fear of not being good enough or that fear of not being somebody who my older siblings could look up to, for example. And what ends up happening is they in turn will feel closer and more understanding of myself versus Andrew being this, you could say mystical lone wolf figure who is there when you need it but never asked anyone to be there for him.
Barbara La Pointe: And taking all of that into consideration, what you just shared, what’s valuable about that to you right now?
Andrew Folkler: Well, you feel more alive. You feel more happier considering that instead of being a lone wolf, instead of being somebody that is standing alone but trying to do all the impossible things that most people would never even consider trying to do, you feel like you actually have some semblance of belonging in the world.
Andrew Folkler: You feel like you have people that you can rely on, and you can accept and that regardless of all the personal flaws that we carry as human beings, that I as an individual am okay. I don’t have to feel like a perfect paragon of quintessential achievement. I don’t have to be this apex of humanity.
Andrew Folkler: I can just be a truer version of myself.
Barbara La Pointe: You’re okay.
Barbara La Pointe: Truer version of yourself.
Andrew Folkler: And so in relation to the alienated child, this is obviously leagues beyond what they’re gonna be thinking about. And that obviously as parents, you’re gonna want your child to push themselves towards this level of self-actualization.
Andrew Folkler: And in order to help them reach that, they have to start to see the patterns of that fear, that anger, and that frustration that is holding them back and preventing them from growing their identity and growing their emotional intelligence.
Barbara La Pointe: So that’s a call you’re putting out there to erased parents as a way to respond to their child that’s gone through a process of alienation, child placement
Andrew Folkler: Alienation. I would go so far as to make that same challenge to the erased parents as well, because the best way we can help people is by leading by example. And your alienated child is not going to feel motivated to live that life because it’s a painful process.
Andrew Folkler: It’s a very destructive process. I mean, in the Buddhist sense, it’s destructive. You’re taking away the negative reactions, the coping mechanisms that sometimes we think define our behavior. Removing those and identifying the source of pain and healing the original wounds.
Andrew Folkler: And in doing so, you’re able to live a more fulfilled life, a more peaceful life, a life that is not a knee-jerk reaction to old wounds caused by other people. And so we lead by example, and your children will see that. They’ll see that peaceful behavior. They’ll see that sense of strength and they’ll recognize that, and they will admire that.
Andrew Folkler: And the first thing that everybody thinks about when it comes to admiration is, how do they get there, and how do I get there? There’s a reason why we admire the strong people. There’s a reason why we admire all these top percenters in anything, be it athletes, finance, business, or coaches, et cetera.
Andrew Folkler: We look up to them, we see the strength they carry, and we say, “I wanna be like that.” So likewise, your child’s going to see the strength that you carry, and they’re going to want to become more like that. If an erased parent allows themself to be a victim of their emotions and a victim of the traumas they’ve gone through, they’re gonna have all these angry, knee-jerk reactions, and the child’s gonna see that and say, “Well, I don’t really wanna be with you because there’s so much drama involved.”
Andrew Folkler: And so that’s why it’s a call for personal work, because that is how you’re able to lead by example. In doing so, you pave the road for your alienated child to walk that path as well.
Barbara La Pointe: Because we’re talking about emotions alienated children might experience and express, and one of them, you touched on this, was apathy.
Barbara La Pointe: But before that you said anger, and maybe before anger or mixed up with anger would be hatred, like feeling hatred towards their mother or their father. Do you think that because if one parent hates the spouse, then that child would say, “Okay. Well, dad hates mom, so I have to hate her, too”?
Barbara La Pointe: Or vice versa, the other way, where a child would feel hatred towards their own parent.
Andrew Folkler: Does the child hate their parent? It’s one of those yes and no answers, unfortunately. Yes, in the sense where this is part of the identity that’s being put into them. So when they’re told what’s allowed, what’s not allowed, hating the other parent, hating the erased parent is part of that identity.
Andrew Folkler: It’s a very ugly process, and...
Barbara La Pointe: The entity of hatred is being built in them, if I may.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, absolutely. And so when they’re being hateful, they’re not thinking about the hate. They’re not thinking about how the other parent is feeling. They’re only thinking about the fear that’s driving the hate.
Andrew Folkler: Maybe one of the things that you might hear, actually, I can’t remember who said it. It was, “The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is apathy. The opposite of love is indifference.” And the reason for that is hate invokes a sense of disappointment. Hate means that I wanted you to be something, but you’re not, and I’m mad that you’re not.
Andrew Folkler: So if you break down that emotion that they’re feeling, and they’re saying, “I wanted you...” They’re probably thinking in their head, “I wanted you to be the perfect mother, the perfect father in a relationship that would have stayed together. But you didn’t, and now I’m angry at you for it.”
Andrew Folkler: And they’re pushing all that anger and frustration onto you. And that’s being done in the form of attacks on your character, attacks on your behaviors and any hobbies you might have. It might be incorporated into insults and things that are just completely not true, and unreasonable demands that no child would ever make.
Barbara La Pointe: Social media attacks.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. That, too. And all of that is done to project that anger, that frustration of, “I wanted a perfect family,” quote, unquote, they believe, but the erased parent is the reason for that failed relationship. Again, this is what’s inculcated into them. It’s not true. So that’s one of the core distinctions I want to make.
Andrew Folkler: Now, after this whole hateful process, maybe days later, there is possibly a sense of guilt and shame. It does depend on how advanced that alienation process is. ‘Cause some people, myself included, might deal with that guilt and shame with apathy. You just put it into a bottle, put those emotions on the shelf, and let it ferment.
Andrew Folkler: So instead of dealing with it, they will put that guilt and shame onto the shelf. And what happens is the next interaction with the erased parent, that’s when they have this track history of all these hateful things they’ve said. And you could think of it like the sunk cost fallacy, is like you can’t back out, ‘cause you’ve given so much energy already into this one endeavor.
Andrew Folkler: So if they back out, then they feel more misaligned with themselves, because their identity, again, is built on hatred. It’s built on being spiteful and venomous. So in order to keep in line, and...
Barbara La Pointe: Guilt is coming up, right? They’re saying, you can’t back out now ‘cause of all the shit that’s gone down.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. And so in order to keep in line with the original behaviors that have been prescribed to them, they have to follow this pattern of behavior. Otherwise, they feel caught and conflicted because they start thinking, “Is this the truth? Am I the bad person for being hateful?
Andrew Folkler: Am I the bad person for saying all these mean things? Am I the bad person for pushing you away?” And so there’s all that guilt that gets wrapped up into the fear, which already was very strong to begin with, and that intensifies the anger that they shoot out at you.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s a really toxic storm. A toxic storm.
Barbara La Pointe: Little side note that children or humans that are disconnected from their mom and dad are so much more of a higher risk of developing a fatal disease or comorbidity. It’s like one parent and then two parents is like 70-plus percent that you will develop a serious disease if you’re disconnected from your mom and dad.
Barbara La Pointe: So where do we go from here, Andrew?
Andrew Folkler: Well, I think that one of the big questions that parents will ask after hearing all of this is, well, so we’ve said that a child is fearful, and they’re acting out of fear, and they’re acting through the lens of anger. And we’ve said that their identity is being manipulated by the alienating parent.
Andrew Folkler: What do you do? How do you tell your kid that you love them? How do you reach out to them? Is it okay if I give them this gift? Is it okay if I call them? Do I attend their graduation, their sports games, their concerts? What do I do? It seems like everything I do is wrong. And I think that a lot of parents experience this.
Andrew Folkler: And the hard part is that it’s obviously going to be different for everyone. Everyone’s got a different kid, and the kid’s going to be growing up in a different universe, and they have to adapt their behaviors accordingly. But there are some recommendations I think you and I have made across multiple episodes that would be very fruitful for the listener today.
Andrew Folkler: And I think the first one is multiple acts of subtlety are far more powerful than one big act of love.
Andrew Folkler: And so the thing is, if, say, your kid has a baseball game, they say, “I don’t want you to attend my baseball games.” If your relationship isn’t going to get any worse, then there’s no reason not to.
Andrew Folkler: I mean, frankly speaking, you should be going anyway. You can be a silent cheerleader in the stands. If they’re at the baseball game, they’ve got bigger things to worry about. Where’s the ball going? Who’s the guy they need to worry about on the enemy team? What coach is saying.
Andrew Folkler: They have a whole lot of things to worry about. If you’re just there as a silent supporter, even if you decide to film it for yourself later, for example, just go anyway. Multiple acts of subtlety will help you create a track record of positive interactions with your kid, even if they react negatively.
Andrew Folkler: So same thing with concerts, same thing with their graduation, for example. I know right now is graduation season. And so a lot of parents are asking, “Do I attend my kid’s high school graduation or their college graduation?” Absolutely. This is a one-time event. And do it by whatever means necessary.
Andrew Folkler: Because when the time comes and they start asking you these questions of what have you done, then you can lay it out for them and show them the track record of your progress, the track record of your efforts to be a part of their life.
Andrew Folkler: Other acts of subtlety include things like just small encouragements.
Andrew Folkler: I know in our episode, 9 Pitfalls Alienated Parents Make With Children, with alienated children, there was a small segment right at the end where we talk about Gary Chapman’s Five Love Languages. And just as a quick refresher, words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, material gifts, and physical touch.
Andrew Folkler: That’s five different ways that, as an individual, as a parent, you can really bond with your child, really connect with them, and give them something that feels positive.
Barbara La Pointe: That’s really nice, just the consistency of all of those acts of love towards your alienated child.
Barbara La Pointe: Towards your child.
Barbara La Pointe: Even if we take off that label of alienated, they’re still your child, and there’s some natural rights that you have and natural laws of love you can be applying in subtle ways so that you don’t flood them out ‘cause emotions, ‘cause it is such a charged situation.
Barbara La Pointe: But I think you’ve also recommended finding common points of interests, like movies or sports that are lighter entry points to dialogue.
Andrew Folkler: Definitely. You definitely want to engage in what I would call micro-commitments, smaller yeses that lead to the big yes. Again, in our episode with Ginger we would say, if you treat it like dating, it gives you a chance to give it the same sense of lightness that you would when trying to interact with someone that you might be interested in.
Andrew Folkler: You can’t walk up to somebody and say, “Hi, my name is Andrew. Let’s get married.” But instead, maybe just something lighter, something where that way you can try and build a relationship with them. You can’t go, “Hi, I’m Dad. Why don’t we have a relationship?” “Hi, I’m Mom. Why don’t you talk to me anymore?”
Andrew Folkler: Try something lighter. Try something happier, and try and provoke them to answer, at least conversationally, questions that are not related to the family dynamics. And so things in regards, like you were saying, with mutual points of interest, or even if you know they’re interested in something, just immerse yourself into that world, see what it’s like, and ask questions about it.
Andrew Folkler: And just like with somebody else, with a friend, maybe a friend is interested in something that as an individual you’re not too familiar with, showing interest in that makes their world feel more exciting. They’re like, “Oh, well, I...” It gives them the chance to be the expert. Let your kid be the expert of something they’re interested in, whether it’s.
Barbara La Pointe: Creativeness.
Andrew Folkler: Whether it’s games, movies, or anything, sports, whatever, and art. And just let them be the expert. It gives them a sense of authority, a sense of belonging. “I’m a part of this community, and I can show you how awesome this community is.”
Barbara La Pointe: Just to get some momentum, positive relational momentum going.
Andrew Folkler: So that’s one of the big ways you can connect with your alienated child. The second one, and this is more indirect, is personal work. And it sounds crazy, but like we mentioned, again, I’m referencing Penny’s episode.
Andrew Folkler: Penny would say, “Conflict is an inside job.” It’s a point of going through and realizing, how can we as individuals become a better person, become a more stronger person, and be more capable of taking on these bigger challenges in our lives? So if you hang the value of your life onto whether or not your children love you, you’re going to feel like your life is worthless and meaningless, because there’s only one variable that determines your life’s value.
Andrew Folkler: And the truth is, your life is way more valuable than just that one relationship, or one or several relationships. Your life is a multitude of so many different things. All your passions, your hobbies, your work life, your intimate life. All of these things come together to form the you that is you.
Andrew Folkler: And you have the potential as an individual to really rise up and be the best version of you in anything that you want to be. And so rather than getting so caught up in the emotional turmoil of your child rejecting you, start looking for ways to make you, as an individual, a more, you could say, attractive person to be around.
Andrew Folkler: Be the fun mom, be the fun dad, the guy or the girl who’s out there making changes in the world that means something to you as an individual. And as you go out there and you put out that kind of energy, naturally you’re going to attract more and more people. And there’s an element of pre-selection in there where, if you have a bunch of kids hanging out with you and wanting to be with you and spend time with you, and your child’s going to see that and say, “What is the secret sauce?
Andrew Folkler: Why are they so cool? What’s the answer to this riddle, this mystery?” And they’re gonna want to find out, and that’s when they’re gonna start timidly taking a couple steps towards you. Maybe they’ll send you a text or something to see how you’re doing, and just to test the waters.
Andrew Folkler: And then you can slowly invite them into your world. The issue I think that a lot of parents have is their whole world has fallen apart and they don’t know where to start to build that. They don’t know how to put their life back together, and maybe they define themselves as their partner’s supporter or something like that.
Andrew Folkler: And now they don’t have any role or any sense of belonging. And I think Barbara, you could speak a little bit more in depth on this as far as the power of having a coach and the power of having someone in your support network to help you lay down the foundations of your life.
Barbara La Pointe: Well, as usual, Andrew, I never answer your question right away because I just want to back up to something that you said that I thought was really powerful.
Barbara La Pointe: And you said, invite them into your world. So I’ll just reframe that to, yeah, the invitation is to meet your alienated child where they are and invite them into your world, and I thought that was really beautiful.
Barbara La Pointe: When I meet women in my coaching practice, I really encourage women to get support.
Barbara La Pointe: Emotional support makes the difference. So whether that’s conflict in divorce or conflict pertaining to your child, alienated or not, I really truly believe that emotional support, heart-centered, intentional, solution-focused support can make such a difference for women or men or any parent going through something like this.
Barbara La Pointe: And when the parents change, the children actually feel the shift, even if they’re teenagers or in their early 20s. It’s the work that parents need to do, and no one can do it for them. No one can do it for us but ourselves. But having that support, very intentional support with the right person allows you to make those breakthroughs to achieve the healing that you want or the reunification that you’re hoping for or whatever your goals are in the conflict.
Barbara La Pointe: There’s so many incredible lessons and gifts to learn in conflict, and parental alienation is a conflict, a complicated, multi-layered, emotionally charged, long-term conflict.
Andrew Folkler: Absolutely. I think it was very well said.
Barbara La Pointe: Thank you. Well, this has been a very exciting hour.
Andrew Folkler: Yeah, definitely has been. Well, I mean, I guess that’s right about all we can cram into this one hour for today.
Andrew Folkler: Once again, everyone, thank you for taking the time to be with us. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to our channel, either on YouTube or to our podcast through iTunes or Spotify. We also are putting out a lot of little mini byte videos out there just to try and get those core points out there for listeners, especially for you who don’t have time to listen to the whole hour.
Andrew Folkler: We definitely encourage listening to the whole hour. So definitely give us a shot, and I’m sure you’ll enjoy all of it. Barbara, if people wanted to reach out to you, what would be the best way to do so?
Barbara La Pointe: I invite anyone to reach out to me at any time to talk.
Barbara La Pointe: Email me, barbara@barbaralapointe.com. My website is barbaralapointe.com.
Barbara La Pointe: I’m there for you.
Andrew Folkler: And don’t forget, we include a downloadable document below. It’s actually on Barbara’s website, barbaralapointe.com/podcast. It’ll help you and your loved ones deal with all of these challenges of trauma, high conflict, and especially reconnecting with an alienated child.
Andrew Folkler: If you wanna reach out to me, you can email me at startnow@andrewfolkler.com. And as always, thank you for taking the time to be with us today at the Broken Families podcast, where we discuss and help you find solutions to divorce, alienation, and high conflict relationships. Have a wonderful day, everyone.
Barbara La Pointe: Beautiful. Bye.